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TSR's Big EU Referendum- Audience Discussion @19:30 Watch

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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    How does he literally have one argument? His post is clearly structured into a number of different points? And he also didn't call his own arguments "*******s"...

    Perhaps if you can clarify your response to his points into something a little more structured and less vague?
    Admits that the 3.5m jobs aren't to be lost, FTA=/=Free movement, and we have no say in the regulations for most of our exports, just like with the vast majority of exports around the world so it's somewhat mooted. As we like to say, when are we going to push for political Union with America and China to get a say on our exports to those countries?

    All the arguments are very easy to push aside, even if we accept all three statements given.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Admits that the 3.5m jobs aren't to be lost, FTA=/=Free movement, and we have no say in the regulations for most of our exports, just like with the vast majority of exports around the world so it's somewhat mooted. As we like to say, when are we going to push for political Union with America and China to get a say on our exports to those countries?

    All the arguments are very easy to push aside, even if we accept all three statements given.

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    No, but even Michael Gove admitted that jobs would be lost and people have a right to know that there is that risk.

    It is very very very unlikely that we'll get a FTA with the EU that doesn't include Free movement.

    The fact is, we'll be leaving a union where we have a say to being in the exact same situation but economically weaker and with absolutely no say.

    You have to provide an alternative to the status quo, and the Leave campaign have not.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    No, but even Michael Gove admitted that jobs would be lost and people have a right to know that there is that risk.

    It is very very very unlikely that we'll get a FTA with the EU that doesn't include Free movement.

    The fact is, we'll be leaving a union where we have a say to being in the exact same situation but economically weaker and with absolutely no say.

    You have to provide an alternative to the status quo, and the Leave campaign have not.
    Pray tell why it's practically impossible to have no free movement and a FTA, many places have them both inside and outside Europe

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Pray tell why it's practically impossible to have no free movement and a FTA, many places have them both inside and outside Europe

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    Because it's vital to many EU countries.

    You're still not offering an alternative though. Respond to all my points Jammy, or do you just concede on them?
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Because it's vital to many EU countries.

    You're still not offering an alternative though. Respond to all my points Jammy, or do you just concede on them?
    There are a lot of alternatives, in fact the vast majority of countries with trade agreements with the EU do not have free movement

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    There are a lot of alternatives, in fact the vast majority of countries with trade agreements with the EU do not have free movement

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    Even if we negotiate a trade agreement without freedom of movement, our small businesses face tariffs which will mean them struggling and not making as much money as they would inside the EU.

    It's still far more likely that we will try to re-enter the single market though


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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    do you think it would be likely to be a good thing or a bad thing if property prices fell?
    By how much, over what period, and across the board or differentially by region?

    The reality is it will make it much harder for many of them
    How so?

    very few people, really, young or old, want house prices to tumble
    Don't remember using the term "tumble" :confused:

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    Osborne has predicted a drop of 18%

    Do you think the Leave side are failing to highlight any potentially negatives to Remaining?
    Way to completely ignore my point :yy:

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    Some of them, yes, others (like myself) demonstrably accept there will be a short-term price to pay

    would you not be shocked if the government were not highlighting significant potential negatives to voting Leave?
    Yup, but my points still stand e.g. that's only a quarter of the picture, and you'd do well to acknowledge this

    senior MPs are on the Leave team, I think it's on them to make their own case
    Do you know what an MP is?

    I would be stunned to find the government not looking at the implications of a Leave vote and making contingency plans, but that doesn't mean they need to share everything they do
    1) Dodgy Dave and Creepy Osborne have intimated that there are no considered contingencies, we've just been threatened with a vague 'emergency budget'; 2) They don't need to share everything they do but if they're concerned about minimising fallout in the very real prospect of #Brexit then the responsible thing to do is to reassure the markets vs. purely concerned with their own political survival and pushing the failed EU project on the people, potentially for another generation or more
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    By how much, over what period, and across the board or differentially by region?
    Well, let's start with the figure that you quoted, along with "Yes please!"

    [QUOTE]How so?[?QUOTE]

    Insecurity over house prices tends historically to cause general instability in the economy. Instability in the economy tends to lead to job cuts, or at the least a loss of expansion and less job creation.

    Don't remember using the term "tumble" :confused:
    No, but many people would call an 18% drop in the value of their house a tumble. It's not a little dip.

    Way to completely ignore my point :yy:
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    Yup, but my points still stand e.g. that's only a quarter of the picture, and you'd do well to acknowledge this
    But this is a quarter of the picture that the Leave side are intent on shooting down with a pithy cry of "Project Fear!"

    Do you know what an MP is?
    Yes, thanks for asking. Do you have a point? If so, perhaps make it instead of being obtuse.

    1) Dodgy Dave and Creepy Osborne have intimated that there are no considered contingencies, we've just been threatened with a vague 'emergency budget'; 2) They don't need to share everything they do but if they're concerned about minimising fallout in the very real prospect of #Brexit then the responsible thing to do is to reassure the markets vs. purely concerned with their own political survival and pushing the failed EU project on the people, potentially for another generation or more
    That is what you might think, I would disagree. Neither of us have expert advice at our disposal on how best to manage economic instability. The point is I would be shocked if they haven't made serious contingency plans.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Even if we negotiate a trade agreement without freedom of movement, our small businesses face tariffs which will mean them struggling and not making as much money as they would inside the EU.

    It's still far more likely that we will try to re-enter the single market though


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    You mean the small businesses that very nearly all operate in the domestic market alone?

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You mean the small businesses that very nearly all operate in the domestic market alone?

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    The same small businesses that when last polled said 47% Remain, 41% Leave, 11% undecided? (FSB)
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Well, let's start with the figure that you quoted, along with "Yes please!"
    Ok, so assuming say 20% drop in London and SE, 15% elsewhere, over the course of 6-18 months, this will have an impact on the financial sector but: 1) It should cope; 2) If it can't, well then it hasn't a cat in hell's chance of coping with what's coming when the Eurozone collapses (whether we're in or out, and especially if we remain). Expect most of the non-house owning population would love to see a 5-20% reduction in house prices

    Insecurity over house prices tends historically to cause general instability in the economy. Instability in the economy tends to lead to job cuts, or at the least a loss of expansion and less job creation
    True, but you can't have a bubble growing forever, and prices in certain parts of the country have strayed significantly, once more, from the fundamentals (supply and demand) e.g. on the back of eternally cheap credit. Sooner or later there has to be a correction and as the 'end of boom and bust' experience with New Labour's crafty cretin Gordon Brown demonstrated, it's better to deflate a bloated system sooner rather than later, and in a staggered way, than with a single, highly precipitous hit that presents an existential threat to the entire capitalistic system!

    No, but many people would call an 18% drop in the value of their house a tumble. It's not a little dip
    If it’s immediate then yes. If phased e.g. 6% per year over the course of 3 years, perhaps not so much

    But this is a quarter of the picture that the Leave side are intent on shooting down with a pithy cry of "Project Fear!"
    Depends entirely upon what the proposition is (see my candid and considered analysis FYR)

    Yes, thanks for asking. Do you have a point?
    Yup. Keen to know what their job description/necessary level of training and expertise is vs. what you appear to be insinuating

    I would be shocked if they haven't made serious contingency plans
    Me too, but the way those two have (mis)handled this whole affair I dread to think.. :erm:
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    (Original post by jneill)
    The same small businesses that when last polled said 47% Remain, 41% Leave, 11% undecided? (FSB)
    Not the ones remain claims are still 90% in favour of remaining, or whatever figure it is they pedal for SMEs?

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Not the ones remain claims are still 90% in favour of remaining, or whatever figure it is they pedal for SMEs?

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    I haven't seen that. Eitherway it's still a majority.

    SMEs are not the same. Small Businesses are usually <100 employees, and 75% are sole proprietor with no employees.

    I wouldn't be surprised if adding Medium Businesses increased the pro-Remain poll results somewhat.

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