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    (Original post by jneill)
    Ah, so first you didn't trust Eurostats info. And now you don't trust your government's info.

    You will still have the government, er, governing you on Friday. You know the government that has Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, et al in it.

    Who do you trust? UKIP? <= the reason we are having this referendum.
    It's Cameron's government. Eurostat is paid by the EU. It's silly to believe their numbers as they want to convince you to vote remain.
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    I'm very much looking forward to the leavers embarrassing themselves even more about MI5 helping to rig the vote- I thought I had noticed that there was no tinfoil left at my local Tesco.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    It's Cameron's government. Eurostat is paid by the EU. It's silly to believe their numbers as they want to convince you to vote remain.
    I'll ask you again. What flavour of government would you trust? UKIP?
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    (Original post by jneill)
    I'll ask you again. What flavour of government would you trust? UKIP?
    I would trust Churchill who was against the EU
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    I would trust Churchill who was against the EU
    He's dead.

    Try again.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    I would trust Churchill who was against the EU
    hahahaha!
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    (Original post by jneill)
    He's dead.

    Try again.
    Why are you letting facts get in the way of an ill-informed rant?
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    I would trust Churchill who was against the EU
    Churchill's on record as being in favour of a United States of Europe. So potentially he'd more one of the more ardent Remainers.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Churchill's on record as being in favour of a United States of Europe. So potentially he'd more one of the more ardent Remainers.
    He said we should be friends with the EU but not part of it.
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    (Original post by RoyalMarine)
    He said we should be friends with the EU but not part of it.
    So you believe we should base our policies on the politics of what, 70 years ago?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    We are one of the biggest powers in it
    1 seat in 28 in the European Council, 13% of the vote in the Council of Ministers, 1 seat in 28 on the Commission. Plus the EU in a major huff with us given all our Euroscepticsm, and Cameron's botched attempt to squeeze concessions out of them/pledge to give us a Democratic say in our sovereign destiny (how very dare us)! Power and influence: rock bottom. Realtalk

    one of the Big Two - Germany and the UK
    One of the big two contributors/economies still deemed reasonably secure and prosperous (until the Eurozone and Migrant crises further intensify, that is)

    More than 90% of the crucial decisions of the EU, carried out in the Council of Ministers, have been approved by the UK government of the day
    True, but we’ve also voted against 72 laws in the Council of Ministers and been overruled EVERY, SINGLE, TIME

    most Europeans like Britain
    Yet Remain are constantly telling us that the EU is fed up with us and that they will punish us with punitive measures left right and centre if we dare to vote for UK Independence. Can’t have it both ways..

    feel, like it or not, deferential to us and our culture at times, because of history
    What on earth am I reading!? This is 2016, not 1950!

    The EU cannot be our enemy because we are it and it is us
    Thankfully, we are not the EU, although I accept the premise that we had a lot to do with earlier incarnations and that a lot of the spirit that the EU tried, and failed, to capture e.g. the European ideal, has parallels with our own, unique culture. We are an Island nation, a Warrior nation, and independent, grown up, successful, Democracy with a rich history that at no time since the Dark Ages hinged on European domination (in either direction)

    They have motives for their bitterness towards the EU, most of which are nothing to do with the interests of the majority
    Some truth in this statement, but our coincidence of interests (their personal interests and our national interest) is a happy marriage of convenience

    A lot of it is to do with defending rich people who operate from the City of London and a small band of tax-evading hedge fund owners and bankers
    How do you work that one out, because the EU want to regulate the city? The UK would/have blocked that whilst in the EU anyway. No no. Think again. Rothschild and Soros have come out threatening the UK against #Brexit, you have it the wrong way round my dear

    We are part of Europe and we should continue to be
    We have no plans to relocate to the mid-Atlantic sweetie. Europe will still be just the other side of the channel on the morning of the 24th, don’t fret now (for the avoidance of doubt: Europe and the EU are not the same thing, kids)

    There is nothing to be gained by isolating ourselves on the periphery other than for those few special interests
    O contraire! As you know full well there’s plenty to be gained, as I’ve laid out in some detail here :top2:
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    1 seat in 28 in the European Council, 13% of the vote in the Council of Ministers, 1 seat in 28 on the Commission.
    (cross-posting this from another thread)

    So on this contention that the UK has such a small share of votes in the EU that it's not worth having it, and therefore the UK is better off out...

    Let's do a little scenario; let's just say the UK remains in the EU. And a few years down the line there's a potential far-right (or far left, it doesn't matter) takeover of the EU with some countries already under extreme governments.

    Now consider what happens when a potentially very contentious vote arises. Noting that we can't use our veto for some reason.

    The voting blocks across other countries are evenly matched.

    The vote is standing at 46% moderate - they want to maintain the status quo.Versus 47% extremist - they want to impose this significant change. A change that would fundamentally alter the way the EU operates. Potentially with huge socio-political and economic effects. So it looks like the extremists have the majority. They are 1% ahead.

    But the UK is sitting there holding a small vote. It's not much but it's the remaining 7%.

    Kapoow! They exercise their 7% and save the day for the other moderates.

    Hmmm, a bit like the Referendum perhaps. I'm pretty sure either Remain or Leave would be extremely pleased to have a 7% block on their side tomorrow.

    Don't ya think...

    Vote Leave if you want to have no influence over the future direction of the EU.
    Or Vote REMAIN. And continue to play your part in the future.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Churchill's on record as being in favour of a United States of Europe. So potentially he'd more one of the more ardent Remainers.
    Even fervent Eurosceptic conspiradroids agree - Christopher Booker for example in his book depicts Churchill driving the creation of the proto-EU along with an odd coalition of the CIA, neo-Marxists in Europe and, I don't know, visiting aliens or something.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    Comparing the EU to the Soviet Union is really deplorable. The EU has been democratically decided upon - all of the member nations voted to join. It has a freely elected parliament and nothing can be done in it without all the member states agreeing.
    Except killing the Greeks with austerity.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Except killing the Greeks with austerity.
    *******s. Greece's problems were of their own making. If the EU/Eurozone were not there, Greece would still have been given a hard line by its creditors. Those decisions were made by Member State governments, not the EU Commission acting on its own.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Except killing the Greeks with austerity.
    Well, yes, I accept that the Eurozone extension to Greece has been pretty bloody disastrous by any standards but it doesn't strictly alter what I said, as all the Eurozone states (and the EU Parliament) agreed to its accession to the Euro originally.

    I think the problems with the Euro are many and varied and whilst I'm relieved we're not in it, I think membership of the EU is a separate issue to what happens to Eurozone defaulters.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Well, yes, I accept that the Eurozone extension to Greece has been pretty bloody disastrous by any standards but it doesn't strictly alter what I said, as all the Eurozone states (and the EU Parliament) agreed to its accession to the Euro originally.

    I think the problems with the Euro are many and varied and whilst I'm relieved we're not in it, I think membership of the EU is a separate issue to what happens to Eurozone defaulters.
    The Greeks held a referendum which was ignored. That isn't democratic.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    *******s. Greece's problems were of their own making. If the EU/Eurozone were not there, Greece would still have been given a hard line by its creditors. Those decisions were made by Member State governments, not the EU Commission acting on its own.
    I doubt it. Then why do Italy,Spain,Portugal have the same crisis? The EU is fail
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The Greeks held a referendum which was ignored. That isn't democratic.
    The problems were and still are huge and I don't think any government could reconcile the refusal of Greek people to leave the Euro with their rejection of bailout terms and with no deep structural reforms. Greece should never have been in the Euro in the first place and all the things that have happened flow from that. If they are staying in, things will just get worse and they are.

    What it really illustrates is the weakness of democracy-by-referendum. People always want their cake and eat it, if asked. Instead it is better to elect representatives who at least have a fighting chance of choosing rational and workable solutions over pipe dreams.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    (cross-posting this from another thread)

    So on this contention that the UK has such a small share of votes in the EU that it's not worth having it, and therefore the UK is better off out...

    Let's do a little scenario; let's just say the UK remains in the EU. And a few years down the line there's a potential far-right (or far left, it doesn't matter) takeover of the EU with some countries already under extreme governments.

    Now consider what happens when a potentially very contentious vote arises. Noting that we can't use our veto for some reason.

    The voting blocks across other countries are evenly matched.

    The vote is standing at 46% moderate - they want to maintain the status quo.Versus 47% extremist - they want to impose this significant change. A change that would fundamentally alter the way the EU operates. Potentially with huge socio-political and economic effects. So it looks like the extremists have the majority. They are 1% ahead.

    But the UK is sitting there holding a small vote. It's not much but it's the remaining 7%.

    Kapoow! They exercise their 7% and save the day for the other moderates.

    Hmmm, a bit like the Referendum perhaps. I'm pretty sure either Remain or Leave would be extremely pleased to have a 7% block on their side tomorrow.

    Don't ya think...

    Vote Leave if you want to have no influence over the future direction of the EU.
    Or Vote REMAIN. And continue to play your part in the future.
    Wow the speculation is real.

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