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    (Original post by Withengar)
    I'm sick and tired of hearing that leaving the EU will somehow, magically, miraculously save the UK. This myth of the big, bad and the ugly EU is nothing but a strawman created by bigots and xenophobes who are against immigration, against foreigners, against European consensus politics, and against, funnily enough, their best interests.

    As soon as the UK hypothetically leaves the EU, it's a much less desirable hub for transport, trade, education, investment and scientific and cultural advancement. Leaving the EU is like throwing caution down the wind and somehow expecting to get ahead as if Britain was still this global empire with international territory of any significance.

    Britain is not an empire anymore, it's a small European country with a great deal of problems and in need of urgent reform - political, cultural and social - none of which will happen if the UK leaves the EU and starts pretending it's an empire whose goods and services are internationally needed.

    It is finally time to recognize that the UK is not a global power, but a local one, a country that needs the EU more then the EU needs it, and one which needs to rethink its place in the world to become a more accepting, progressive and liberal society, not a regressive, isolationist one.
    Excellent post! :clap2:

    I think the point is that whilst we are still a great country, we owe it to the world to work closely with others to make everything better. We have a great deal to offer and shouldn't huddle in a corner, nursing our cup of British cocoa over a little camp fire and whistling lonely ditties.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    If you honestly think we can just sit out of Europe's problem just like that, you've not been paying attention. If Europe suffers economically, so will we.
    I've been paying plenty of attention while I've been studying, working, paying taxes, then studying some more.

    Why do you think there are no equivalents to the EU in Africa, Asia or the Americas? The original idea of a trading organisation was good. The political, legal, financial entity that exists today is not.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    I've been paying plenty of attention while I've been studying, working, paying taxes, then studying some more.

    Why do you think there are no equivalents to the EU in Africa, Asia or the Americas? The original idea of a trading organisation was good. The political, legal, financial entity that exists today is not.
    Can you actually explain to me why it is 'not good'? And not some cliched regurgitated response like "we lose control" or "its undemocratic" - because as far as I know, the EU has massively improved living standards across Europe because of its laws.
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    (Original post by Withengar)
    I'm sick and tired of hearing that leaving the EU will somehow, magically, miraculously save the UK. This myth of the big, bad and the ugly EU is nothing but a strawman created by bigots and xenophobes who are against immigration, against foreigners, against European consensus politics, and against, funnily enough, their best interests.
    You start by arrogantly and patronisingly accusing anyone who disagrees with you as being a racist and a xenophobe who doesn't know their own interests as well as a teenager on an internet forum. Apart from the rampant stupidity obviously inherent in this statement, you will have inevitably heard several arguments made by Brexiteers over the last few weeks and months which set out a perfecty decent case for leaving based on issues like the democratic deficit and the economy. The double irony of this is that by casting baseless accusations of racism at your opponenets it is rather you that is acting against your best interests by disillusioning people with Remain.

    As soon as the UK hypothetically leaves the EU, it's a much less desirable hub for transport, trade, education, investment and scientific and cultural advancement. Leaving the EU is like throwing caution down the wind and somehow expecting to get ahead as if Britain was still this global empire with international territory of any significance.

    Britain is not an empire anymore, it's a small European country with a great deal of problems and in need of urgent reform - political, cultural and social - none of which will happen if the UK leaves the EU and starts pretending it's an empire whose goods and services are internationally needed.

    It is finally time to recognize that the UK is not a global power, but a local one, a country that needs the EU more then the EU needs it, and one which needs to rethink its place in the world to become a more accepting, progressive and liberal society, not a regressive, isolationist one.
    This all sounds awfully impressive and persuasive. Then you realise that all you're reading is a collection of high-flung statements with no explanation or supportive evidence.

    I find your lack of faith in Britain to build its own progressive society which copperates with the rest of the world extremely worrying. There is a reason our Parliament is known as the Mother of all Parliaments. We've been doing this democracy, civilised society stuff for much longer than everyone else and we're not going to suddenly decide after a thousand years to completely change gear because our decades old membership of the EU is ended. The idea is frankly ridiculous and smacks of desperation.

    The idea that the financial centre of the world and its fifth largest economy is going to implode after leaving a political and economic union with which it supplies more than it takes is too ambitious to take seriously. We will also have hundreds of millions of pounds every week newly freed up to invest in much needed public services.

    The only worry for liberalism in this discussion centres on the fact that we currently have a large portion of our day to day government being formulated and conducted by faceless and unelected bureaucrats in another country who the people of this country haven't elected and cannot hold to account, a view which the late Tony Benn passionately and rightly endorsed. The right to elect and hold to account your law makers is the cornerstone of any liberal democracy, and it is on that basis that we should leave the EU.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    But it isn't the Titanic, you're letting the leave campaign manipulate you into thinking the EU is about to crash. It evidently isn't.
    Well if the EU is ok then we can leave we wouldn't have to worry about their having problems and our government can actually do their jobs.
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    (Original post by Withengar)
    I'm sick and tired of hearing that leaving the EU will somehow, magically, miraculously save the UK. This myth of the big, bad and the ugly EU is nothing but a strawman created by bigots and xenophobes who are against immigration, against foreigners, against European consensus politics, and against, funnily enough, their best interests.

    As soon as the UK hypothetically leaves the EU, it's a much less desirable hub for transport, trade, education, investment and scientific and cultural advancement. Leaving the EU is like throwing caution down the wind and somehow expecting to get ahead as if Britain was still this global empire with international territory of any significance.

    Britain is not an empire anymore, it's a small European country with a great deal of problems and in need of urgent reform - political, cultural and social - none of which will happen if the UK leaves the EU and starts pretending it's an empire whose goods and services are internationally needed.

    It is finally time to recognize that the UK is not a global power, but a local one, a country that needs the EU more then the EU needs it, and one which needs to rethink its place in the world to become a more accepting, progressive and liberal society, not a regressive, isolationist one.
    hear hear vote remain
 
 
 
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