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    (Original post by Quantex)
    Unemployed, unskilled Brits need to stop *****ing about migrants and learn from them. We don't live in some socialist fantasy where you get a job just because of your nationality. You've got to earn it in a competitive labour market. The advantage migrants have is obvious, they are willing to migrant to find employment. Maybe Brits should be willing to show the same level of initiative and be willing to move to where there are jobs, rather than expecting employment to come to them.
    That post is fundamentally wrong. The way to improve the labour market is not to import immigrants to do jobs, it is to invest in Training for a British workforce. I am very much pro business but I would rather hire an English man then a Polish man- I dont give a **** about the work ethic of the Polish they are imported by MNC's to drive wages down so the wages bill goes down. Migrants are headhunted to a certain extent, there is a chicken factory down the road from me who only employs polish people because there wage demands are less and some of them work for below the NMW/NLW. I have copied and pasted an article about Primark (and many other Clothing chains ) using migrants , paying them less then the minimum wage in horrible working conditions, that puts the British man at a disadvantage if immigration is making it so companies can hire people on wages last seen in the 1990s in Britain.I bet you will come back saying the English man can work for less- the polish get paid cash in hand
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    (Original post by ManmoreAlpha)
    Most people on benefits arent scroungers :rolleyes: We had some people from the Job Centre do work experience at my gym, you have to search for work and apply for jobs all the time to get benefits despite what the Daily Mail tells you. Lots of employers would rather hire immigrants they can push around or even pay below minimum wage illegally. You sound naive.

    The problem is these people are often low skilled, and there arent enough low skilled jobs. Did you read the OP
    Or rather the problem stems from improper regulations of employers. The issues bolded above will still happen to illegal immigrants were free movement abolished and so the problem would persist.

    I managed to get a well-paid job two weeks after finishing my year 13 exams with only GCSEs on my CV and limited previous work experience as a volunteer. I sat for eight hours a day and applied for jobs until I got one. I fail to understand why other people complain but do not bother doing the same. Of course they have to search for jobs - why are you excusing a frankly entitled expectation that the job will come to them?
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    (Original post by NerradCFCB)
    That post is fundamentally wrong. The way to improve the labour market is not to import immigrants to do jobs, it is to invest in Training for a British workforce. I am very much pro business but I would rather hire an English man then a Polish man- I dont give a **** about the work ethic of the Polish they are imported by MNC's to drive wages down so the wages bill goes down. Migrants are headhunted to a certain extent, there is a chicken factory down the road from me who only employs polish people because there wage demands are less and some of them work for below the NMW/NLW. I have copied and pasted an article about Primark (and many other Clothing chains ) using migrants , paying them less then the minimum wage in horrible working conditions, that puts the British man at a disadvantage if immigration is making it so companies can hire people on wages last seen in the 1990s in Britain.I bet you will come back saying the English man can work for less- the polish get paid cash in hand
    Again, this is to do with regulating employers rather than minimising free movement. If employers were unable to get away with illegal activities, it would not be an issue. Moreover, the living wage will be introduced in 2020 so that employers have to pay higher wages.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So?

    I thought you were all for markets. Yet when it comes to this you go all protectionist.

    If you want to be a libertarian you have be for looser borders, not stronger ones.
    I'm not a libertarian and I'm all for opening borders, but only with countries that share a similar level of development. Eastern European countries shouldn't have entered the EU so fast. Ironically, it was Tony Blair who pushed for their admission.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I'm not a libertarian and I'm all for opening borders, but only with countries that share a similar level of development. Eastern European countries shouldn't have entered the EU so fast. Ironically, it was Tony Blair who pushed for their admission.
    Why is that ironic? It fits perfectly well with his third way politics.

    The rigid sticking to of nation states is conservative and it is not at all surprising why a left wing neoliberal would advocate opening borders between a rich country and a poorer country. If it drives down wages in the rich country and brings up wages in the poor country until an equilibrium is reached then so be it. International equality.

    Liberté, égalité, fraternité :france:

    Although I'd throw a load of labour organisation into the mix so the working class gets a bigger share of the pie.

    I'm the libertarian and you are the statist in this scenario
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Why is that ironic? It fits perfectly well with his third way politics.
    Because core Labour voters rejected that last week.

    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I'm the libertarian and you are the statist in this scenario
    Well I'm still against state intervention. Immigration is a different issue.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Why is that ironic? It fits perfectly well with his third way politics.

    The rigid sticking to of nation states is conservative and it is not at all surprising why a left wing neoliberal would advocate opening borders between a rich country and a poorer country. If it drives down wages in the rich country and brings up wages in the poor country until an equilibrium is reached then so be it. International equality.

    Liberté, égalité, fraternité :france:

    Although I'd throw a load of labour organisation into the mix so the working class gets a bigger share of the pie.

    I'm the libertarian and you are the statist in this scenario
    Nation states are the only places equipped to provide the poor with levels of protection worthy of a human being. The other two options are countries with vast levels of inequality, civilisation states such as India, China, Russia or the USA or city states which act as tax havens for a small elite of the very wealthy and the very highly skilled.
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    If you snooze, you lose. Nothing is given to you. You have to earn it.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    Again, this is to do with regulating employers rather than minimising free movement. If employers were unable to get away with illegal activities, it would not be an issue. Moreover, the living wage will be introduced in 2020 so that employers have to pay higher wages.
    But they don't just read the article below

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...med-and-shamed

    Minimising the free movement of people is certainly the thing to do. Why? You have thousands of applicants for each job advertising adding more competition into unemployed in the UK, this creates a problem because our unemployed especially youngsters generally do not have much experience , where as Polish or Lithuanians may have done that field of work at home giving them a vast advantage over our people. Youngsters are being forced on to apprenticeships because companies do not want to pay them proper money , you can not deny that 300,000 plus immigrants hitting us every year is making it harder for our youth and long term unemployed to get a job. Interesting point about regulating employers, it would cost the tax payer greatly, to find nothing if employers are paid cash in hand, the employer will just say they are casuals and will be paid at the end of the week to get rid of the inspectors, also there is bribery which always occurs with government officials. The best way to get our people in to jobs is to cut the competition and the way to do that is to lower immigration by doing this vastly experienced polish people cant take jobs over our long term unemployed and youth unemployed. The government do not help people into work enough. We need to govern in the interests of British born citizens not the polish. I do have a job so I am speaking about this as freely as I want, in my opinion the higher the population the higher the demand for a job, the higher the demand the more likely the company will get someone with rock bottom wage demands, with high immigration the less chance it will be a English person employed, especially for long term unemployed and youth because immigrants with experience will be hired over young britons without experience, meaning that British unemployed will never ever get experience because they can not get in the door in the first place. If i have a business in the future i would only hire English people f**k diversity.

    TLDR
    1. Freedom of Movement= mass immigration
    2.Mass immigration = more demand for jobs with a stagnant, or slowly growing market for jobs
    3. Europeans who use freedom of movement have more and recent experience compared to our youth and long term unemployed.
    4. Europeans have less wage demands and would work for under the minimum wage if possible to undercut the English man
    5. This prolongs the time taken for English unemployed getting a job.

    This is one of the many reasons i do not like the EU, but liberals seem happy with, falling wages, increasing house prices and more demand for jobs
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    (Original post by NerradCFCB)
    But they don't just read the article below

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...med-and-shamed

    Minimising the free movement of people is certainly the thing to do. Why? You have thousands of applicants for each job advertising adding more competition into unemployed in the UK, this creates a problem because our unemployed especially youngsters generally do not have much experience , where as Polish or Lithuanians may have done that field of work at home giving them a vast advantage over our people. Youngsters are being forced on to apprenticeships because companies do not want to pay them proper money , you can not deny that 300,000 plus immigrants hitting us every year is making it harder for our youth and long term unemployed to get a job. Interesting point about regulating employers, it would cost the tax payer greatly, to find nothing if employers are paid cash in hand, the employer will just say they are casuals and will be paid at the end of the week to get rid of the inspectors, also there is bribery which always occurs with government officials. The best way to get our people in to jobs is to cut the competition and the way to do that is to lower immigration by doing this vastly experienced polish people cant take jobs over our long term unemployed and youth unemployed. The government do not help people into work enough. We need to govern in the interests of British born citizens not the polish. I do have a job so I am speaking about this as freely as I want, in my opinion the higher the population the higher the demand for a job, the higher the demand the more likely the company will get someone with rock bottom wage demands, with high immigration the less chance it will be a English person employed, especially for long term unemployed and youth because immigrants with experience will be hired over young britons without experience, meaning that British unemployed will never ever get experience because they can not get in the door in the first place. If i have a business in the future i would only hire English people f**k diversity.

    TLDR
    1. Freedom of Movement= mass immigration
    2.Mass immigration = more demand for jobs with a stagnant, or slowly growing market for jobs
    3. Europeans who use freedom of movement have more and recent experience compared to our youth and long term unemployed.
    4. Europeans have less wage demands and would work for under the minimum wage if possible to undercut the English man
    5. This prolongs the time taken for English unemployed getting a job.

    This is one of the many reasons i do not like the EU, but liberals seem happy with, falling wages, increasing house prices and more demand for jobs
    What a load of rubbish, you need to learn about economics.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    What a load of rubbish, you need to learn about economics.
    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at? I would rather have economic instability and less immigration. In the future we will be stronger out of the EU why?

    We only pay tariffs to deals with them and they will have to pay tariffs to do deals in the UK, We can make our tariffs higher then the ones we pay. We will be saving £35 million a day which could be used to fund the NHS in the public sector, investment in infrastructure through grants and the increase of business grants and incentives for our UK based companies which are small to medium sized. You heard it here first we will retain access to the single market without the movement of people, why? because we are in a trade deficit with the EU meaning we buy more from them then what they buy for us. New Zealand, Australia and Germany all want to do a deal with us other countries will follow suit. If you seriously think 300,000 people coming here impacts the economy greatly, what planet are you on? It increases demand for jobs meaning it is more likely companies will hire individuals with lower wage demands to go with this the cost of property is going through the roof out pricing people from buying housing . I appreciate that there are many economic factors but I place, democracy, sovereignty and my anti immigration views all above the economy. Germany are the only country which really have amazing benefits from the EU.
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    (Original post by NerradCFCB)
    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at? I would rather have economic instability and less immigration. In the future we will be stronger out of the EU why?

    We only pay tariffs to deals with them and they will have to pay tariffs to do deals in the UK, We can make our tariffs higher then the ones we pay. We will be saving £35 million a day which could be used to fund the NHS in the public sector, investment in infrastructure through grants and the increase of business grants and incentives for our UK based companies which are small to medium sized. You heard it here first we will retain access to the single market without the movement of people, why? because we are in a trade deficit with the EU meaning we buy more from them then what they buy for us. New Zealand, Australia and Germany all want to do a deal with us other countries will follow suit. If you seriously think 300,000 people coming here impacts the economy greatly, what planet are you on? It increases demand for jobs meaning it is more likely companies will hire individuals with lower wage demands to go with this the cost of property is going through the roof out pricing people from buying housing . I appreciate that there are many economic factors but I place, democracy, sovereignty and my anti immigration views all above the economy. Germany are the only country which really have amazing benefits from the EU.
    It must take considerable effort to be so wrong in so many areas. How do you do it?

    For example, if one side put up tariffs, the other side will do the same to match it. Its called a trade war.

    Just because the UK has a deficient with a trading bloc does not mean they give us anything. The EU knows many businesses will go under if they can't have access to the single market and are now actively wooing them like Paris is doing with London bankers.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    It must take considerable effort to be so wrong in so many areas. How do you do it?

    For example, if one side put up tariffs, the other side will do the same to match it. Its called a trade war.

    Just because the UK has a deficient with a trading bloc does not mean they give us anything. The EU knows many businesses will go under if they can't have access to the single market and are now actively wooing them like Paris is doing with London bankers.
    Thats where the government need to be firm and fine them for taking jobs abroad. The other way I would be happy for it to happen is for Trump to win in USA then USA/UK invade Europe. Listen we import more then what we export by not letting us have access without Immigrants the EU countries will be worse off. We need self sufficiency- we have relied on the EU for to long. I predict we will get access without freedom of people. Also it should be made firm that if the London bankers go to EU countries they should not be allowed to come back. The EU is good for MNC's and trade, never disputed that but the topic was about UK jobs for UK citizens not EU citizens. If you read through my account I have said it is good for MNC's but as a whole we could do a better deal
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    (Original post by fatima1998)
    what if people aren't smart enough to get the job and immigrants are :erm:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    ignore me :getmecoat:
    That's why people want controlled immigration.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Soz, no can do.

    (Original post by Quantex)
    Unemployed, unskilled Brits need to stop *****ing about migrants and learn from them. We don't live in some socialist fantasy where you get a job just because of your nationality. You've got to earn it in a competitive labour market. The advantage migrants have is obvious, they are willing to migrant to find employment. Maybe Brits should be willing to show the same level of initiative and be willing to move to where there are jobs, rather than expecting employment to come to them.
    That works on a few too many faulty premises.
    1) Migrants always migrate to find employment.
    2) Brits aren't willing to show the same initiative/haven't already showed the same initiative.
    3) The demand for jobs increases with more migrants.

    You're being naïve; I doubt you'll say "Brits are expecting employment to come to them" again when you're a lot older, looking for a job.
    And not everyone has the ability to keep relocating for a possible job, especially so if they have families. Then you have to consider travelling costs and whether the venture actually bores any fruit overall.
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    (Original post by NerradCFCB)
    Thats where the government need to be firm and fine them for taking jobs abroad. The other way I would be happy for it to happen is for Trump to win in USA then USA/UK invade Europe. Listen we import more then what we export by not letting us have access without Immigrants the EU countries will be worse off. We need self sufficiency- we have relied on the EU for to long. I predict we will get access without freedom of people. Also it should be made firm that if the London bankers go to EU countries they should not be allowed to come back. The EU is good for MNC's and trade, never disputed that but the topic was about UK jobs for UK citizens not EU citizens. If you read through my account I have said it is good for MNC's but as a whole we could do a better deal
    I will stop talking to you, good luck.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Most people who criticise immigration have nothing against doctors or high skilled migrants. Jesus Christ. I feel it's pointless to repeat that again and again..
    Well unfortunately associating benefits and "job stealing" with immigration does make people who actually work hard feel useless. Imagine you working so hard to become successful and all you hear is people complaining about people who were once in your position...
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    Because many British people believe these jobs are beneath them, and so immigration allows us to fill these roles and make sure money is coming back tot he system, so we can pay for the lazy scroungers who think they deserve 600k a year or they won't work. There are plenty of jobs out there, you just have to be willing to realise as long as you're on the dole, you're not in any position to refuse a job. A simple solution is to introduce Nazi labour schemes, make people work for their money
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    LMAO at the people who think the waves of immigrants/asylum seekers/refugees from the Middle-East and Africa are highly qualified doctors, nurses, teachers, etc...

    Liberals are so delusional some times.
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    Poles do get a bit unfairly targeted. Theres far too many Spanish, Italians (even Brazilians fgs) aswell. Very rare to find an English person serving in cafes/bars/restaurants in any large city these days.
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    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    LMAO at the people who think the waves of immigrants/asylum seekers/refugees from the Middle-East and Africa are highly qualified doctors, nurses, teachers, etc...

    Liberals are so delusional some times.
    No one thinks asylum seekers and refugees are high skilled workers, theyre escaping war you blithering idiot.
 
 
 
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