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    (Original post by mil88)
    I know this is for Brother Tawheed but I would like to comment to just this point quickly.

    So do you take the ones who are "vested with authority" from Quran 4:59, to be the Muslim Khalifahs? I also assume that you're aware of the fact that when it states "minkum" in the verse, this is present tense, thus a Muslim Khalifa, who we have to obey, has to always be present.

    I have therefore have three questions:

    1. Who do we have to follow today then (modern society)?
    2. Do you therefore take Yazeed as one of the leaders that the verse states to obey after the Prophet? Did the people of his time have to obey him?
    3. Do you believe in the hadith in Sahih Muslim about the Holy Prophet saying ' I leave 2 weighty things, for if you follow them, you will never go astray. The book of Allah, and my Ahlulbayt (said this part 3 times)?

    That is all.
    Assalamualaikum,

    First of all, even hough me and you may not agree, your questions are great.😉

    1- Who do we have to follow today? That is up to you, whoever you wish to follow. I strive to follow those who are strictly following the Qur'an and Sunnah of Rasool Allah (SAW). Why? Because one can never go astray following these two things, unless his sincerity is in doubt.

    2- As for Yazeed, I believe the crime he committed, or his followers committed, was a disgusting crime and Allah will be the judge of them. My belief is that of the 4 Imams, the Salaf as Salih and the great scholars of Islam. That is, we should not love him nor hate him. Why? Because at the end of the day, he was a Tabi'een. I request you have a look at the link below, as it explains it better than I can.
    https://islamqa.info/en/14007

    3- Yes, Sunnis do believe in this hadith, as its chain of narration is authentic. Please note, that the Prophet (SAW) also said , “The best people are those of my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them. Then, there will come people whose witness will precede their oaths and whose oaths will precede their witness.”Source: Sahih Bukhari 6065, Sahih Muslim 2533
    The hadith you mentioned is correct, yet misinterpreted as the Shi'a use this as an excuse to say that Caliph Ali (RA) was the rightful successor, therefore saying the Prophet and Allah made a mistake appointing Abu Bakr, Na'Udhubillah!

    Insha'Allah hope this helps.

    الله اعلم
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Dear sister, salamunalaykum,

    Despite holding disagrements on these issues, i am so happy to see we can get along, we can discuss these issues with each other in a manner where we show respect, tolerance, and kindness.

    May Allah azwj accept the good deeds and have mercy of the muslims, and guide us all unto truth , Ilahiameen.
    Wa'alaikum Assalam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh. Ameen. JazakAllah khair.
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    (Original post by shazy2014)
    No they wouldn't disown me, I'd tell my mum but not anyone else though cause they'd critice me to much. But yeah it makes complete sense to me
    Then, like I said, do it and become a Shia. Good luck
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    Dont do it*
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    (Original post by Axel Johann)
    x
    (Original post by PrincessBO$$)
    x

    OI!

    Stop having an argument about one little mistake that someone made...

    Use your brain to understand what he said in a positive light, don't spend brain cells thinking of the mistakes in his words...
    +
    Princess Boss, stop being arrogant and give in to the fact that what you wrote sounded a bit iffy

    It's all good guys, just relax
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    (Original post by King7)
    Assalamualaikum,

    First of all, even hough me and you may not agree, your questions are great.😉
    Wa'alaykumsalam brother/sister

    (Original post by King7)
    1- Who do we have to follow today? That is up to you, whoever you wish to follow. I strive to follow those who are strictly following the Qur'an and Sunnah of Rasool Allah (SAW). Why? Because one can never go astray following these two things, unless his sincerity is in doubt.
    Perhaps I didn't explain my question properly. What I meant was, in light of 4:59 being present tense, who are the Muslim leaders that you believe we must obey? Or is it that you don't believe there's anyone today that we must obey?

    (Original post by King7)
    2- As for Yazeed, I believe the crime he committed, or his followers committed, was a disgusting crime and Allah will be the judge of them. My belief is that of the 4 Imams, the Salaf as Salih and the great scholars of Islam. That is, we should not love him nor hate him. Why? Because at the end of the day, he was a Tabi'een. I request you have a look at the link below, as it explains it better than I can.
    https://islamqa.info/en/14007
    I respect your opinion about Yazeed.

    However, my question was that if you believe that Quran 4:59 is commanding us to obey the Khalifa of the time, then did the people of Yazeed have to obey him?

    (Original post by King7)
    3- Yes, Sunnis do believe in this hadith, as its chain of narration is authentic. Please note, that the Prophet (SAW) also said , “The best people are those of my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them. Then, there will come people whose witness will precede their oaths and whose oaths will precede their witness.”Source: Sahih Bukhari 6065, Sahih Muslim 2533
    The hadith you mentioned is correct, yet misinterpreted as the Shi'a use this as an excuse to say that Caliph Ali (RA) was the rightful successor, therefore saying the Prophet and Allah made a mistake appointing Abu Bakr, Na'Udhubillah!

    Insha'Allah hope this helps.

    الله اعلم
    Oh no, astagfirallah, we believe the Prophet never made a mistake. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but don't sunnis believe that Abu Bakr was elected and thus not chosen by the Holy Prophet?

    My point was, Prophet said follow Quran and Ahlulbayt and you will never go astray, and so surely the successor should have been part of ahlulbayt?
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    (Original post by shazy2014)
    Hello
    I'm thinking of becoming Shia because I believe in the ahlebait and the should have been leadership of Ali and Hussein
    But I would just like to know anything else that I should know like general knowledge on how Shias are different
    Can anyone help me out?
    Do you believe the imams have knowledge of the unseen?

    Do you believe they're better than the Prophets?

    Do you believe that most of the companions of the Messenger of Allah were astray?

    If not, Shi'ism isn't for you.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    Could you please state which innovations are present today?

    What about this "bidah" (note: I am not stating it's bidah of my own accord, rather quoting from the hadith below)

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    '...Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, "I went out in the company of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, 'In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in congregation!)'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka'b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; ..."

    Volume 3, Book 32, Number 227- Sahih Bukhari
    Very interesting indeed.



    Correct, the Prophet did not mention ahlulbayt, this is often used with another hadith. The notion of 12 leaders is derived from here and instances in the Quran i.e Prophet Musa



    He instructed the Muslims to hold onto the Quran and Ahlulbayt (repeated this 3 times), and if you do, you will never go astray.

    I can't see where the Prophet said to be mindful. The respectful part comes from a verse in the Quran, not this hadith. (Tell them, I ask nothing from you except love for my relatives/kin)



    I will refer back to this soon, as the Prophet recited a verse prior to this which indicated otherwise. I'll find the verse soon.

    Just to point out though, what is your justification for all the people who heard saying : 'Baqqin Baqqin Ya Ali' (Congratulations, Congratulations of Ali)



    This hadith denotes how Hazrat Umar apparently disobeyed the Holy Prophet just before he was about to die, and angered him to an extent that the Prophet ordered them to leave. Consequently causing the very narrator of this hadith to cry profusely when recalling this hadith.

    Also, please read 4:59 from the Quran (Obey God, Obey the Prophet...)



    I haven't heard about Hazrat Umar doing that. I will research this though.



    Abu Bakr isn't really classified as an enemy of Hazrat Ali in my opinion.

    Should have named his son Abu Bakr's actual name, rather an a Qunya if he wanted to purely name after Abu Bakr.



    This hadith denotes that Hazrat Fatimah was angered by the first caliph, and used alongside another hadith mentioning that the Prophet saying whoever angers Fatimah, angers me.

    I hope I haven't said anything incorrect or hurtful.
    Innovations:
    - Various celebrations of the births of the Ahlul Bayt and Mawlidun Nabi, all of which is imitation of the Ahlul Kitaab in how they treat saints and prophets. The Prophet (SAW) never did anything special on the day of his birth; there is a hadith which talks about fasting on the day of his birth however I will later show why that is not related to an annual fasting of his birthday (but first I will respond to Tawheed).
    - Commemorating the deaths of the Ahlul Bayt (notably Husayn RA) in organised ways with chest beating, wailing and songs, all of which are outside the Sunnah - in fact the Prophet (SAW) described wailing as an act of Jahiliyyah. I have seen a weak justification saying that Yakub (AS) cried himself blind when Yusuf was left in the well, but this is hardly evidence to support organised and codified mourning by Shia.
    - The veneration of the notable dead through shrines which become the sources of pilgrimage (and worship by jahiloon/mushrikoon).
    - Generally fundamental concepts of Shi'ism e.g. the imamate, but I guess this is a point we can't really argue is or isn't bidah since it's the core of the argument.

    The hadith quoted with Umar (RA) is often quoted by both Shia and Sufis in an attempt to catch Sunnis out and justify the existence of 'good bidah', however this is a weak understanding of the topic. The Prophet (SAW) led Taraweeh in congregation during his lifetime but did not do it all the time lest Taraweeh became fardh upon the Ummah; after he died, Umar found the people praying individually, so he revived the sunnah of praying behind one imam and called it a good innovation - innovated by the Prophet (SAW), not himself.

    There is an extensive article I have read with evidences and reasoning to show how Umar (RA) did not disobey the Prophet (SAW) with regards to the matter of the pen. I will find it and post it here in my follow up response InshaAllah - it concluded that the Shia take on the hadith was again weak understanding. Furthermore, for the reason I explained, it makes no sense at all to have a written document regarding the succession when Shia already claim that Ali (RA) was declared the leader in front of tens to hundreds of thousands of people and indicated through the 'vast number' of hadith which support the right of the Ahlul Bayt. Sunni hadith already explain this topic by saying that the Prophet (SAW) later calmed down and said that the advice was to drive the Nasarah and Yahud out of Arabia and other things, with no mention of Ali (RA). I have not seen a hadith of Ibn Abbas (who if I recall correctly was the narrator of the 'calamity' of Thursday and the incident of the Pen) where, as the narrator, he cried.

    The hadith clearly talks of 12 rulers; it would be long winded and uneloquent of the Prophet (SAW) to say 12 rulers but really he means 12 members of Quraysh who are really 12 members of Banu Hashim who are really 12 members of his bloodline. There is no hadith and nowhere in the Quran which unambiguously refers to 12 Imams of the Ahlul Bayt - something so core and fundamental to (Shia) Islam. I challenge any Shia to bring me a Sahih unambiguous statement which declared that there will be an imamate of 12 imams from the Ahlul Bayt.

    Could you give me an authentic hadith which relates this congratulations, I am afraid I haven't come across that before in my reading.

    He told the Ummah to be mindful of the Ahlul Bayt 3 times, but there is not an authentic narration which talks about the Ahlul Bayt being the source of guidance, rather only the Quran. In fact, I also believe there is a Shia hadith which has the wording "beware how you behave with them (the Ahlul Bayt)", however I will confirm this too in the follow up post.

    Regarding Umar (RA) causing Fatimah (RA) to miscarry, I have heard Shia scholars narrate this, I have seen it on Iranian Govt funded TV stations etc. I think Fadlullah might have questioned its authenticity but I have never seen any Ayatollah or learned Shi'i reject this as a fabricated story.

    Abu Bakr (RA) was the first to usurp Ali's 'right', so why is he not considered an enemy?

    Abu Bakr's real name is Abdullah, so the fact Ali's son had the same rather unique kunya rather than his common name (which is much much more frequent) is telling.

    Even if we took the meaning of hadith to mean that Fatimah (RA) or even the Prophet (SAW) was angry at an individual, it does not mean that they were not righteous nor does it mean that Allah will punish them - I believe I have read that the Prophet was angry whenever he would see the killer of one of the Sahabah (his uncle Hamza perhaps) though the individual had since repented and become Muslim. Upon entering Islam sincerely, this individual would be forgiven his sins yet the Prophet (SAW) was still angry; is the Prophet Maliki Yawmideen? Or perhaps it's the Ahlul Bayt who will decide who will be admitted to Jannah or Jahannam? La', only Allah is the Judge on that day.

    Forgive me too what I say in fault or ignorance.
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    (Original post by mil88)
    Wa'alaykumsalam brother/sister



    Perhaps I didn't explain my question properly. What I meant was, in light of 4:59 being present tense, who are the Muslim leaders that you believe we must obey? Or is it that you don't believe there's anyone today that we must obey?



    I respect your opinion about Yazeed.

    However, my question was that if you believe that Quran 4:59 is commanding us to obey the Khalifa of the time, then did the people of Yazeed have to obey him?



    Oh no, astagfirallah, we believe the Prophet never made a mistake. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but don't sunnis believe that Abu Bakr was elected and thus not chosen by the Holy Prophet?

    My point was, Prophet said follow Quran and Ahlulbayt and you will never go astray, and so surely the successor should have been part of ahlulbayt?
    Brother, lol. You?

    1-In my personal opinion, there is NO 'leader' we must obey. What I mean, is that as there is no legitimate Khilafah, there is no actual leader. Today, the Ummah is divided due to Nationalism, Astaghfirullah. However, you can choose to follow scholars who you agree with, i.e. teach Qir'an and Sunnah.

    2-Yazid was appointed heir, by his father. I would say this, if they followed his father they should follow him. He wasn't reported to be unfair nor unjust. But, he did commit a huge sin. Allah will be his (and our) judge on Yawm Al Qiyamah.


    3-The successor (Abu Bakr (RA)) was elected leader by almost all the Sahaaba, including Ali (RA). Likewise Umar (RA), Uthman (RA) and Ali (RA). Many Shi'a say that Ali opposed all their reigns, but they are fabricated hadith as their Chain of narrations are false and untrue.

    Jazak'Allah😉

    (Sorry, I may have accidentaly posted twice)
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    That's the same as me saying that Sunnis blow themselves up. Don't go around pushing those labels, there's a set of extremists to everything in life.
    Fair point
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    I'm sure you're not supposed to divide yourself and label yourselves as Shia or Sunni??
    I don't think Allah intended that?

    Idk I'm not Muslim... So... Forgive me if I've said something wrong
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    (Original post by AppleB)
    I'm sure you're not supposed to divide yourself and label yourselves as Shia or Sunni??
    I don't think Allah intended that?

    Idk I'm not Muslim... So... Forgive me if I've said something wrong
    Exactly, but that's just how people define themselves nowadays and it's become the norm. Really, there's only one true path in Islam and that's the well informed and learned path and not the 'I inherited my religion' path.
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    Exactly, but that's just how people define themselves nowadays and it's become the norm. Really, there's only one true path in Islam and that's the well informed and learned path and not the 'I inherited my religion' path.
    Well said!!
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    (Original post by AppleB)
    I'm sure you're not supposed to divide yourself and label yourselves as Shia or Sunni??
    I don't think Allah intended that?

    Idk I'm not Muslim... So... Forgive me if I've said something wrong
    Unfortunately the differences between Shia and Sunni are so great that it is important to differentiate between the two - there is no such thing as 'just Muslim'; mainly it is ignorant/unlearned Muslims with airy fairy views who tend to say 'I'm not Sunni or Shia, I'm just Muslim', but undoubtedly they follow either Shia Islam or Sunni Islamic practices without realising.
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    (Original post by Boss_Rhythm)
    OI!

    Stop having an argument about one little mistake that someone made...

    Use your brain to understand what he said in a positive light, don't spend brain cells thinking of the mistakes in his words...
    +
    Princess Boss, stop being arrogant and give in to the fact that what you wrote sounded a bit iffy

    It's all good guys, just relax
    lol we already stopped.

    And I don't mind a mistake so long as you're brave enough to admit it, but the fact that she was so hostile about it made me go off on her.

    But I still stand by everything I said, you shouldn't generalise about Shias like that, because it causes unnecessary and undeserved negativity towards them.

    You wouldn't want a non-muslim talking about muslims like that, so the same applies to Sunnis talking about Shias. In any case, valid criticism is okay, but what she did wasn't.
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    (Original post by Axel Johann)
    lol we already stopped.

    And I don't mind a mistake so long as you're brave enough to admit it, but the fact that she was so hostile about it made me go off on her.

    But I still stand by everything I said, you shouldn't generalise about Shias like that, because it causes unnecessary and undeserved negativity towards them.

    You wouldn't want a non-muslim talking about muslims like that, so the same applies to Sunnis talking about Shias. In any case, valid criticism is okay, but what she did wasn't.
    That's good

    Yh, I see what you mean....

    Okay, and we all respect your opinion

    Hmmmm....
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Innovations:
    - Various celebrations of the births of the Ahlul Bayt and Mawlidun Nabi, all of which is imitation of the Ahlul Kitaab in how they treat saints and prophets. The Prophet (SAW) never did anything special on the day of his birth; there is a hadith which talks about fasting on the day of his birth however I will later show why that is not related to an annual fasting of his birthday (but first I will respond to Tawheed).

    The hadith quoted with Umar (RA) is often quoted by both Shia and Sufis in an attempt to catch Sunnis out and justify the existence of 'good bidah', however this is a weak understanding of the topic. The Prophet (SAW) led Taraweeh in congregation during his lifetime but did not do it all the time lest Taraweeh became fardh upon the Ummah; after he died, Umar found the people praying individually, so he revived the sunnah of praying behind one imam and called it a good innovation - innovated by the Prophet (SAW), not himself.
    Sufism and Sunni aren't mutually exclusive (tbh I've never seen anyone as 'just sufi').

    There are more justifications for implementing 'good bid'ahs' as long as it does not actually go against the Sharia (ie. Shirk, Kufr). More emphasis is based on the specific acts of worship done on days such as Milad-un-Nabi. These involve perfectly legitimate acts such as reciting Qur'an, sending salutations on the prophet etc.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    At the time of the Fajr prayer the Prophet (ﷺ) asked Bilal, "Tell me of the best deed you did after embracing Islam, for I heard your footsteps in front of me in Paradise." Bilal replied, "I did not do anything worth mentioning except that whenever I performed ablution during the day or night, I prayed after that ablution as much as was written for me." (Bukhari Book of Tahajjud)
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Sufism and Sunni aren't mutually exclusive (tbh I've never seen anyone as 'just sufi').

    There are more justifications for implementing 'good bid'ahs' as long as it does not actually go against the Sharia (ie. Shirk, Kufr). More emphasis is based on the specific acts of worship done on days such as Milad-un-Nabi. These involve perfectly legitimate acts such as reciting Qur'an, sending salutations on the prophet etc.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    At the time of the Fajr prayer the Prophet (ﷺ) asked Bilal, "Tell me of the best deed you did after embracing Islam, for I heard your footsteps in front of me in Paradise." Bilal replied, "I did not do anything worth mentioning except that whenever I performed ablution during the day or night, I prayed after that ablution as much as was written for me." (Bukhari Book of Tahajjud)
    I know - there are Sunni Sufis, Shia Sufis, sub grups and orders and so on and so forth.

    What evidence is there? The intention that one is doing more (otherwise legitimate) acts of worship due to a specific reason e.g. because it is Mawlidun Nabi, is what makes it an innovation, since it is a day which has been singled out for extra ibadah for a very special and specific reason when no such thing was done during the time of the Prophet (SAW).

    Respectfully I don't see the purpose of quoting that hadith - it simply states that Bilal (RA) used to pray a lot after he entered Islam
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    I know - there are Sunni Sufis, Shia Sufis, sub grups and orders and so on and so forth.
    Ok. Just seemed like you thought they were a group completely separate when you said "catch sunnis out".

    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    What evidence is there? The intention that one is doing more (otherwise legitimate) acts of worship due to a specific reason e.g. because it is Mawlidun Nabi, is what makes it an innovation, since it is a day which has been singled out for extra ibadah for a very special and specific reason when no such thing was done during the time of the Prophet (SAW).

    Respectfully I don't see the purpose of quoting that hadith - it simply states that Bilal (RA) used to pray a lot after he entered Islam
    Well it might even be a bid'ah if you don't celebrate the birth of the prophet at all apart from that one day. If a husband and wife celebrate their anniversaries and because they're realy nice they do a good deed and feed other people too, they won't get any sin for it.

    The hadith shows Bilal used to pray a nafl salah after each time he performed ablution (which was an act unique to him).
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    (Original post by shazy2014)
    Hello
    I'm thinking of becoming Shia because I believe in the ahlebait and the should have been leadership of Ali and Hussein
    But I would just like to know anything else that I should know like general knowledge on how Shias are different
    Can anyone help me out?
    lessee... as far as I know, you should start praying three times a day (instead of five)

    and then, start waiting for the 12th imam to come out of occultation.... in the meantime, start imitating some grand ayatollah (marjah') : a list of them here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Maraji

    best
 
 
 
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