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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)

    Irrelevant, and a poor excuse not to abolish it. People have always killed each other, doesn't mean we should tolerate something which is intolerant and is a source for violence. Doesn't mean we should live and let live. Nor is it an argument that we shouldn't abolish it because something else may take it's place. That's also a poor excuse, and I don't think it in anyway justifies tolerating something as violent and intolerant as a medieval religion in this modern world.
    It is unnecessary, outdated, and dangerous.
    You're totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not using my reasoning as an excuse. I'm saying the same amount of good and evil exists within Islam as there is outside of it and that this has always been the case. You can abolish it if you want [although I doubt you have a masterplan, 'thunder chunky']. I wouldn't particularly care. But you'd be disappointed to find that all the terrorists wouldn't suddenly become good, virtuous people and terrorism and violence would continue regardless.

    Those many Muslims who are good people would also continue to be good because, despite what they may think, they are good people because they have it deep inside them and have been brought up by good people. It isn't their 'god' which makes them good.

    this is just my opinion as an atheist although I realise it could anger people on both sides of the argument.
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    (Original post by abc:))
    You're totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not using my reasoning as an excuse. I'm saying the same amount of good and evil exists within Islam as there is outside of it and that this has always been the case. You can abolish it if you want [although I doubt you have a masterplan, 'thunder chunky']. I wouldn't particularly care. But you'd be disappointed to find that all the terrorists wouldn't suddenly become good, virtuous people and terrorism and violence would continue regardless.

    Those many Muslims who are good people would also continue to be good because, despite what they may think, they are good people because they have it deep inside them and have been brought up by good people. It isn't their 'god' which makes them good.

    this is just my opinion as an atheist although I realise it could anger people on both sides of the argument.
    If terrorists wouldnt suddenly become good, wouldnt that mean that some muslims can be evil as oppose to Islam itself.

    ive undergone many charities in the past and travelled to many countries in africa to build wells etc in deprived areas, as well as volunteering hospitals, and i do so as i believe i will be rewarded in this world or when i die. Most of the inspiration for doing good i get from a book compiled by Hadhrat Manzoor Nomani on book of manners and soft heartedness which are hundreds of sayings of the prophet and actions done.

    If i were an atheist, and i believed we are just accidents of a `selfish` gene, and do not believe in being rewarded, do you think i would even think about spending my hard earned money on people who are just not naturally selected?
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    Well, I actually explored this issue in a paper I wrote about human rights violations in Malaysia compared with Singapore and Thailand which had similar traditional cultures. Singapore had moved towards a Western culture, Thailand had maintained a more traditional culture, and Malaysia had adopted Islam in pursuit of progress. I found that Malaysia has more human rights issues primarily due to the Islamic courts and religious police. The secular courts and police were more willing to work with human rights advocates than were the Islamic bodies, but unfortunately a large proportion of the population is Muslim and thus subject to the Islamic bodies, while the rights of non-Muslims are highly restricted. Chinese people are treated worse in Malaysia and kept out of certain jobs, for instance.

    These cultures all had a similar starting point, and Islamic Malaysia was clearly lagging behind Singapore and Thailand in both human rights and economic development, and many of the policies and laws related to these deficiencies do in fact come from political Islam.

    I think I can say with certainty that the world would be better off without political Islam having any power to influence laws or the structure of government. In fact, the conclusion I reached in my paper was that restoring human rights in Malaysia would require the disestablishment of Sharia courts, better status for non-Muslim citizens, and a return to secular bodies with laws that apply to people of all faiths, and that this could possibly be achieved peacefully through the consistent and unified application of sanctions and espionage by other nations over time. My teacher was impressed with the paper and gave me the highest grade possible.

    This is not to say that Islam cannot be practiced in a manner that is apolitical and thus causes less harm, but on the topic of political Islam in particular, I must agree with what Winston Churchill once said, that "no stronger retrograde force exists in the world."
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    (Original post by abc:))
    You're totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not using my reasoning as an excuse. I'm saying the same amount of good and evil exists within Islam as there is outside of it and that this has always been the case. You can abolish it if you want [although I doubt you have a masterplan, 'thunder chunky']. I wouldn't particularly care. But you'd be disappointed to find that all the terrorists wouldn't suddenly become good, virtuous people and terrorism and violence would continue regardless.

    Those many Muslims who are good people would also continue to be good because, despite what they may think, they are good people because they have it deep inside them and have been brought up by good people. It isn't their 'god' which makes them good.

    this is just my opinion as an atheist although I realise it could anger people on both sides of the argument.
    There is good and evil outside religion, but that doesn't mean we should continue to tolerate something which we know is a source for global security issues worldwide.
    * * Of course terrorism won't become extinct by abolishing islam, no one is claiming that. However it would be one less reason for it to occur.*
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    Well, I actually explored this issue in a paper I wrote about human rights violations in Malaysia compared with Singapore and Thailand which had similar traditional cultures. Singapore had moved towards a Western culture, Thailand had maintained a more traditional culture, and Malaysia had adopted Islam in pursuit of progress. I found that Malaysia has more human rights issues primarily due to the Islamic courts and religious police. The secular courts and police were more willing to work with human rights advocates than were the Islamic bodies, but unfortunately a large proportion of the population is Muslim and thus subject to the Islamic bodies, while the rights of non-Muslims are highly restricted. Chinese people are treated worse in Malaysia and kept out of certain jobs, for instance.

    These cultures all had a similar starting point, and Islamic Malaysia was clearly lagging behind Singapore and Thailand in both human rights and economic development, and many of the policies and laws related to these deficiencies do in fact come from political Islam.

    I think I can say with certainty that the world would be better off without political Islam having any power to influence laws or the structure of government. In fact, the conclusion I reached in my paper was that restoring human rights in Malaysia would require the disestablishment of Sharia courts, better status for non-Muslim citizens, and a return to secular bodies with laws that apply to people of all faiths, and that this could possibly be achieved peacefully through the consistent and unified application of sanctions and espionage by other nations over time. My teacher was impressed with the paper and gave me the highest grade possible.

    This is not to say that Islam cannot be practiced in a manner that is apolitical and thus causes less harm, but on the topic of political Islam in particular, I must agree with what Winston Churchill once said, that "no stronger retrograde force exists in the world."
    Great project on 1/49 muslim countries around the world. that is a very evidential conclusion made by studying one muslim country.

    Secondly, one thing that is common with people who do not understand islam, is that most countries, if not all muslim countries, do not practise islamic politics entirely, and most transgress beyond the limit prescribed by islam itself, which is forbidden by islam.

    Lets take the source of islam, saudi. Most of the actions they do are not in true accordance with islam, even their attire is not the actual prescribed Sunnah, that is, the dressed worn by the Prophet. Most muslim countries ban muslim women from driving which is not in Islam. One of my great teachers identified to me over 50 actions within and out of their political system which is not in correspondence with islam.

    So i like your project but it has no basis to even come close to your conclusion
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    (Original post by terry4009)
    Great project on 1/49 muslim countries around the world. that is a very evidential conclusion made by studying one muslim country.

    Secondly, one thing that is common with people who do not understand islam, is that most countries, if not all muslim countries, do not practise islamic politics entirely, and most transgress beyond the limit prescribed by islam itself, which is forbidden by islam.

    Lets take the source of islam, saudi. Most of the actions they do are not in true accordance with islam, even their attire is not the actual prescribed Sunnah, that is, the dressed worn by the Prophet. Most muslim countries ban muslim women from driving which is not in Islam. One of my great teachers identified to me over 50 actions within and out of their political system which is not in correspondence with islam.

    So i like your project but it has no basis to even come close to your conclusion
    I did look at the laws of several other Islamic countries, and there were similar problems in each of them. Even the few with strong secular traditions like Turkey and Iran have major issues with these being constantly attacked and eroded by political Islamic forces.

    Issues like women's rights and LGBT rights alone would disqualify several Islamic countries from having an acceptable human rights record. And it's no secret that Islamic countries tend to have terrible GDPs. The only two that break the top 20 are Turkey and Indonesia. It's not hard to argue that Islamic culture and politics are harmful to the well-being of Muslims.
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    I did look at the laws of several other Islamic countries, and there were similar problems in each of them. Even the few with strong secular traditions like Turkey and Iran have major issues with these being constantly attacked and eroded by political Islamic forces.

    Issues like women's rights and LGBT rights alone would disqualify several Islamic countries from having an acceptable human rights record. And it's no secret that Islamic countries tend to have terrible GDPs. The only two that break the top 20 are Turkey and Indonesia. It's not hard to argue that Islamic culture and politics are harmful to the well-being of Muslims.
    Same thing same thing you are purely talking about "culture" not Islam itself. Islam does not prevent women from working etc in fact one of the most highest regarded scholars of Islam was Hadhrat Aisha who had contributed a substantial amount to Islamic education, preserving over 2000 saying of the prophet by memory, Islam loves women to engage in work but culture like pakistani culture where a lot of women are just made to stay at home uneducated can and has affected your mentality, but please understand Islam, and culture.

    You talk about GDP, now i dont know how Islamic most countries are now, but i do know when they were, that is, when Islam was ruled by the caliphs umar and abu bakr, check how much they achieved and their wealth and you might reconsider stating about GDP notion
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    (Original post by terry4009)
    Same thing same thing you are purely talking about "culture" not Islam itself. Islam does not prevent women from working etc in fact one of the most highest regarded scholars of Islam was Hadhrat Aisha who had contributed a substantial amount to Islamic education, preserving over 2000 saying of the prophet by memory, Islam loves women to engage in work but culture like pakistani culture where a lot of women are just made to stay at home uneducated can and has affected your mentality, but please understand Islam, and culture.
    Well, outside of existing Islamic countries and the attitudes of their people, I have little else to go on as far as establishing the impact of Islam on a society.

    I can't really imagine what Islamic theocracy would be like if it were free of all influences of Arab culture and somehow theologically purified and distilled into a perfect/ideal implementation. It's like Communism... everyone says that if Marx's theories were implemented correctly, it would work, but in practice, every functioning example that exists in the modern world makes it look like a bad idea (unless you count Chinese Communism, which is very different from other forms).

    You talk about GDP, now i dont know how Islamic most countries are now, but i do know when they were, that is, when Islam was ruled by the caliphs umar and abu bakr, check how much they achieved and their wealth and you might reconsider stating about GDP notion
    You mean the Caliphs that lived between 500 and 600 AD? Umm... okay, I'll concede that Islam was an appropriate and even progressive religion for Arabia circa 600 AD. Admittedly, I don't know enough about Zorastrianism or Arab polytheism to say whether Islam is better or worse than the previous faiths. I had the modern world in mind.

    If I were to suggest that Britain could become today what it was in the 1920s, I'm pretty sure most people would say the world had changed too much for that to be relevant as a model. So a political structure derived from a 5th century Caliphate is just not on.
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    Well, outside of existing Islamic countries and the attitudes of their people, I have little else to go on as far as establishing the impact of Islam on a society.

    I can't really imagine what Islamic theocracy would be like if it were free of all influences of Arab culture and somehow theologically purified and distilled into a perfect/ideal implementation. It's like Communism... everyone says that if Marx's theories were implemented correctly, it would work, but in practice, every functioning example that exists in the modern world makes it look like a bad idea (unless you count Chinese Communism, which is very different from other forms).

    You mean the Caliphs that lived between 500 and 600 AD? Umm... okay, I'll concede that Islam was an appropriate and even progressive religion for Arabia circa 600 AD. Admittedly, I don't know enough about Zorastrianism or Arab polytheism to say whether Islam is better or worse than the previous faiths. I had the modern world in mind.

    If I were to suggest that Britain could become today what it was in the 1920s, I'm pretty sure most people would say the world had changed too much for that to be relevant as a model. So a political structure derived from a 5th century Caliphate is just not on.
    Its bewildering how someone who has absolutely no theoretical cognizance of Islamic Politics could predict the outcome of something they dont even know. You have to study a political system to even have an idea of how successful it will be. Now ive explained how disparate modern "Islamic" countries are to the true primary Quranic politics, as one aspect of my phD was exactly on studying such a correspondence. So this discussion could become incessant with unsupported theories.....or with you conceding a lack of knowledge to make a conclusion like that, i mean studying just over 2% of muslim countries just isnt adequate.

    "So a political structure derived from a 5th century Caliphate is just not on"

    Firstly it wasnt 5th century it was actually around 7th century. Secondly, the political structure was not derived from the Caliphate, it was derived from Islam which determined the political structure. My point was not regarding time, it was regarding how successful on a religious level and secular level an Islamic political system was when it was practiced correctly.
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    (Original post by terry4009)
    Its bewildering how someone who has absolutely no theoretical cognizance of Islamic Politics could predict the outcome of something they dont even know. You have to study a political system to even have an idea of how successful it will be. Now ive explained how disparate modern "Islamic" countries are to the true primary Quranic politics, as one aspect of my phD was exactly on studying such a correspondence. So this discussion could become incessant with unsupported theories.....or with you conceding a lack of knowledge to make a conclusion like that, i mean studying just over 2% of muslim countries just isnt adequate.
    I will make no such concession. Of course women driving is not specifically in the Quran, because cars didn't exist. But there are plenty of examples of things women can't do in the Quran that would suggest that a policy not allowing women to drive accords with Islamic principles. And you say that women can "work," but you don't say what kind of work they should be allowed to do. Perhaps you're restricting them to certain occupations. You're using pointed examples of things Islamic countries do that aren't specifically mentioned in the Quran as evidence that they're not legitimate examples of an Islamic political structure. If I apply that same standard to Communist countries, none of them have followed Marxist principles perfectly either. So there have been no Communist states by that way of looking at things.
    Firstly it wasnt 5th century it was actually around 7th century. Secondly, the political structure was not derived from the Caliphate, it was derived from Islam which determined the political structure. My point was not regarding time, it was regarding how successful on a religious level and secular level an Islamic political system was when it was practiced correctly.
    My point was that an Islamic political system working well in 7th century Arabia is not evidence that implementing the same sort of political system today would work well. I'm suggesting that the world has changed so much since the 7th century that, although Islam worked well for that time, it would not be appropriate as a political system today, considering modern economic demands, technology, and human rights issues that weren't considered back then. The same principles may well not be applicable.
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    I will make no such concession. Of course women driving is not specifically in the Quran, because cars didn't exist. But there are plenty of examples of things women can't do in the Quran that would suggest that a policy not allowing women to drive accords with Islamic principles.

    Like ive said you have not studied the Quran or perhaps even read it yet you are saying that women should, via "true" islamic law, not be allowed.

    I am a scholar and the two major Islamic Institutions in the world that accounts for most of the Muslim population, that is , the sunni, which are Dar uloom deoband and South African Darul iftaa have given the fatwa ( Islamic jurisprudence from deliberation) that it is permissible for women to drive as long laws of hijab are observed.


    And you say that women can "work," but you don't say what kind of work they should be allowed to do. Perhaps you're restricting them to certain occupations. You're using pointed examples of things Islamic countries do that aren't specifically mentioned in the Quran as evidence that they're not legitimate examples of an Islamic political structure. If I apply that same standard to Communist countries, none of them have followed Marxist principles perfectly either. So there have been no Communist states by that way of looking at things.

    Exactly, if my teacher could identify over 50 inconsistencies then that would be valid in my opinion to say that even the most "islamic" country cannot be deemed genuinely so. That would hence mean we cannot make an evidential conclusion based on nothing concrete.


    My point was that an Islamic political system working well in 7th century Arabia is not evidence that implementing the same sort of political system today would work well. I'm suggesting that the world has changed so much since the 7th century that, although Islam worked well for that time, it would not be appropriate as a political system today, considering modern economic demands, technology, and human rights issues that weren't considered back then. The same principles may well not be applicable.
    How would you know? Honestly Islamic empires did not just focus on Islam, it focused on Businesses (keeping in mind the Prophet and most successive Caliphates were businessmen) economies, trading (Muslims were the first in the world to begin the coffee trade) , and even technology.
    In fact, as far as innovation is concerned, Islam has played a huge role in inventions such as

    Algebra
    The first hospital was made under the command of a muslim WOMAN
    The first magnifying Glass
    Innovations in surgical instruments etc..
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    (Original post by terry4009)
    In fact, as far as innovation is concerned, Islam has played a huge role in inventions such as

    Algebra
    The first hospital was made under the command of a muslim WOMAN
    The first magnifying Glass
    Innovations in surgical instruments etc..
    1) Algebra already existed
    2) Greeks
    3) Greeks
    4) 'Innovations' so better tools but nothing more

    and Islam had no role in any of these.

    You need a better history book
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    Srs Q? :lolwut:
 
 
 
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