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Should paedophilia still be considered a disorder? Watch

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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    asopposed tothe Physical and pseudo-intellectual churches of the religious right spreading hate ?
    There are no right-wing universities. If David Cameron or Theresa May lived 50 years ago they would have been called Reds, there is no modern right.

    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I kinda agree with him on that one. Aspergers (in most cases), psychopathy and ADHD aren't disorders. They are different ways of being. I hate how society has become, categorising different states of being as a disorder to be cured. And this only benefits bug pharma, which are making tonnes of mental health drugs.
    Exactly right, they are not disorders, they are simply arbitrary patterns of behaviour society groups and pathologises.

    EDIT: People with ASD and ADHD have their symptoms treated, but nobody tries to cure them because there is no sickness.
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    Sexuality is different to fetishes/paraphilias and my ****ing God it is so pathetic constantly seeing people say "well if we allow homosexuals to do this then we may as well just allow paedophiles to do X as well!" - the instant someone spurts some ******** like this you know they probably have at most 2 brain cells.
    --
    Paedophilia is classified in such a way since it is a paraphilia (essentially a dangerous fetish) which concerns objects of sexual fascination whereas homosexuality is (unsurprisingly) a sexuality which is to do with sexual attraction towards a certain sex. They are not remotely the same thing nor should be treated the same way.

    People who don't act upon paedophilia are certainly not doing any immediate harm no, but the sake of the fact there is always a risk they will act, we need to encourage and allow these people to seek psychotherapy and as such to try and overcome these feelings as much as possible.
    --
    God just you ****ing morons who always try and dampen any progress for homosexuals by saying "BUH DEN PEDOPHILES!!" really ****ing irk me - go **** off back to the 1920s.
    I've been so careful to reaffirm the fact the homosexuality causes zero harm throughout this thread because my agenda is not hatred of gay people. I think I'm one of the few people rebellious enough to have supported gay people back when doing so would get you into trouble.
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    --
    God just you ****ing morons who always try and dampen any progress for homosexuals by saying "BUH DEN PEDOPHILES!!" really ****ing irk me - go **** off back to the 1920s.
    Fun fact: 1920s Germany was the best time to be gay (in history), there were gay magazines in circulation, public gay bars, unfortunately the Nazis came in and everyone went backwards and it's taken almost 100 years to get back to that point.


    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    There are no right-wing universities, there is no modern right. If David Cameron or Theresa May lived 50 years ago they would have been called Reds, there is no modern right.



    Exactly right, they are not disorders, they are simply arbitrary patterns of behaviour society groups and pathologises.
    Unfortunately not. Universities are full of bratty leftists now.

    Oh and yeah, it's sickening how everything is a disorder now. I'm questioning dyslexia now. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...academics.html

    If you look through the DSM V, it's ridiculous.
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    Dunno.

    I don't think being a paedophile itself makes you a bad person though.
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    Fun fact: 1920s Germany was the best time to be gay (in history), there were gay magazines in circulation, public gay bars, unfortunately the Nazis came in and everyone went backwards and it's taken almost 100 years to get back to that point.
    This is something which I have thought about so much growing up, why is it we define Nazis are members of the far-right rather than renegade progressives?


    The Nazis rode to power on the back of vicious antisemitic conspiracy theories because there was an awareness of the existence of a successful minority, the Jews and rather than accepting their culture of hardwork and scholarly achievement, they assumed there must have been nefarious activities behind Jewish success. They think in exactly the same way ironically as the ANC in South Africa or Mugabe's Zimbabwe, all of their policies were radical centre or moderate left, the only reason we class them as right-wing is because they made racial distinctions.


    The same applies with homosexuality, only a collectivist society would ban a harmless act on the grounds that it's somehow bad for society on the whole, if we accepted that the only objective entity is the individual then this bigotry would disappear.


    (Original post by Electrospective)
    Unfortunately not. Universities are full of bratty leftists now.

    Oh and yeah, it's sickening how everything is a disorder now. I'm questioning dyslexia now. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...academics.html

    If you look through the DSM V, it's ridiculous.
    The diagnostic criteria is so general that it essentially gets diagnosed by fact that difficultly reading appeared rather than specific identifiable markers of illness.
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    People who don't act upon paedophilia are certainly not doing any immediate harm no, but the sake of the fact there is always a risk they will act, we need to encourage and allow these people to seek psychotherapy and as such to try and overcome these feelings as much as possible.
    If they think they are going to act on it then they should have places to go to ask for help.

    I see women I am attracted to. I have the urge to have sex with them. Doesn't mean I am going to rape them. If I am sexually attracted to a woman who has rejected my advances and can not have consensual sex with her. There is no way for me to do that. Even though I may fantasise about having sex with her, that doesn't mean I am going to rape her.
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I kinda agree with him on that one. Aspergers (in most cases), psychopathy and ADHD aren't disorders. They are different ways of being. I hate how society has become, categorising different states of being as a disorder to be cured. And this only benefits bug pharma, which are making tonnes of mental health drugs.
    I've worked with children and young people with severe Autism, who sometimes live in complete hell. To say that they aren't suffering from a disorder but are just different is so wrong. People tend to think that Autism is just people who are bit socially awkward, a bit like Sheldon Cooper. But it's not.

    . Tell me that this isn't a disorder. You're just being ignorant now, and to be honest it's offensive. Because attitudes like yours are so, so damaging to progression in terms of understanding and treatment.

    And the same applies to ADHD, and also Psychopathy. Although psychopaths would never admit that they have anything wrong with them, although everyone in their lives sure as hell would.

    You're taking hippy dippy rubbish. Go to a unit and work with adults with severe Autism and come back and tell me it's not a disorder. Go to a Pupil Referral Unit and go work with adolescents with ADHD and Antisocial Behaviour Disorder and tell me, they don't suffer from disorders. In fact, trot along to your local high security prison, spend a couple of days with some Psychopaths and come back and tell me they are just different

    It physically hurts my head, to witness such people with such easy access to knowledge, still remaining so stubbornly ignorant. Please guys, educate yourselves. For the love of God.



    Btw, Aspergers is no longer actually considered a stand alone disorder, it's pooled with ASD.
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    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    This is something which I have thought about so much growing up, why is it we define Nazis are members of the far-right rather than renegade progressives?


    The Nazis rode to power on the back of vicious antisemitic conspiracy theories because there was an awareness of the existence of a successful minority, the Jews and rather than accepting their culture of hardwork and scholarly achievement, they assumed there must have been nefarious activities behind Jewish success. They think in exactly the same way ironically as the ANC in South Africa or Mugabe's Zimbabwe, all of their policies were radical centre or moderate left, the only reason we class them as right-wing is because they made racial distinctions.


    The same applies with homosexuality, only a collectivist society would ban a harmless act on the grounds that it's somehow bad for society on the whole, if we accepted that the only objective entity is the individual then this bigotry would disappear.




    The diagnostic criteria is so general that it essentially gets diagnosed by fact that difficultly reading appeared rather than specific identifiable markers of illness.
    I don't know why they're seen as far-right tbh. They were probably put there because the nazist ideology was very hateful (to say the least) and hateful is synonymous with the far-right (according to...society).

    And exactly, I guess parents like to know that it wasn't their bad parenting that's caused any problem, the child is just mentally ill. Which is a terrible way to go about things, we shouldn't be giving kids mental health drugs.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I've worked with children and young people with severe Autism, who sometimes live in complete hell. To say that they aren't suffering from a disorder but are just different is so wrong. People tend to think that Autism is just people who are bit socially awkward, a bit like Sheldon Cooper. But it's not.

    . Tell me that this isn't a disorder. You're just being ignorant now, and to be honest it's offensive. Because attitudes like yours are so, so damaging to progression in terms of understanding and treatment.

    And the same applies to ADHD, and also Psychopathy. Although psychopaths would never admit that they have anything wrong with them, although everyone in their lives sure as hell would.

    You're taking hippy dippy rubbish. Go to a unit and work with adults with severe Autism and come back and tell me it's not a disorder. Go to a Pupil Referral Unit and go work with adolescents with ADHD and Antisocial Behaviour Disorder and tell me, they don't suffer from disorders. In fact, trot along to your local high security prison, spend a couple of days with some Psychopaths and come back and tell me they are just different

    It physically hurts my head, to witness such people with such easy access to knowledge, still remaining so stubbornly ignorant. Please guys, educate yourselves. For the love of God.
    I said Aspergers, not Autism. Oh wait, my bad, Aspergers isn't in the latest DSM. But you know what I mean.

    They are just different. Emotions won't change my opinion, sorry. Evidence and arguments, yeah sure. Tell me, how is Psychopathy an illness? What's the underlying issue? The biochemistry involved? What is the treatment? Are there medications involved that treat it, or a certain therapies? In some ways it is advantageous to be a psychopath, in finance, especially to become a CEO. It has a higher prevalence in CEOs. So let's not make arguments based on emotions, thanks.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I've worked with children and young people with severe Autism, who sometimes live in complete hell. To say that they aren't suffering from a disorder but are just different is so wrong. People tend to think that Autism is just people who are bit socially awkward, a bit like Sheldon Cooper. But it's not.

    . Tell me that this isn't a disorder. You're just being ignorant now, and to be honest it's offensive. Because attitudes like yours are so, so damaging to progression in terms of understanding and treatment.

    And the same applies to ADHD, and also Psychopathy. Although psychopaths would never admit that they have anything wrong with them, although everyone in their lives sure as hell would.

    You're taking hippy dippy rubbish. Go to a unit and work with adults with severe Autism and come back and tell me it's not a disorder. Go to a Pupil Referral Unit and go work with adolescents with ADHD and Antisocial Behaviour Disorder and tell me, they don't suffer from disorders. In fact, trot along to your local high security prison, spend a couple of days with some Psychopaths and come back and tell me they are just different

    It physically hurts my head, to witness such people with such easy access to knowledge, still remain to stubbornly ignorant. Please guys, educate yourselves. For the love of God.
    Just because they are suffering because of their difference does not prove it is an illness or else short men or men who are not very handsome would be suffering an illness :rofl2:
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    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    The only effective way of stopping them reoffending is physical or chemical castration or ensuring they never enter normal society, literally life in prison with no possibility of parole.


    People who say it's an illness are leftist pseudoscientists who think they can ''cure'' them and safely reintroduce them to society, it's not possible, it's a dangerous lie.
    I have to say that I disagree with almost everything you have said in this thread! :/

    The way in which our behavior presents is very interesting in trying to decide if is 'an illness'. For instance, some of my behavior I can say is the result of maladaptive psychological or brain structural processes...
    I suppose that you could probably say the same about paedophilia. Although there is no clear biological and/or evolutionary underlying mechanism, it would be very likely that there are some psychological causes.

    I also do not think that your disease analogies hold.
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    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    Just because they are suffering because of their difference does not prove it is an illness or else short men or men who are not very handsome would be suffering an illness :rofl2:
    The example of ASD or autism is again extremely complex, and is a very broad stroke of a diagnosis with varied underlying mechanisms - of which I do not understand.
    Those individuals are the way they are because of malformation of cortical and subcortical structures which result in autism like symptoms.
    So, yes, it is a disorder or 'illness'.
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    Pedophilia is as much a disorder as homosexuality.

    Pedophiles, contrary to popular opinion, are not destined to molest children. There are pedophiles in YOUR community who don't want to hurt anyone. These people need compassion, not knee-jerk revulsion. They need to be able to access confidential support to control their desires.
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I said Aspergers, not Autism. Oh wait, my bad, Aspergers isn't in the latest DSM. But you know what I mean.

    They are just different. Emotions won't change my opinion, sorry. Evidence and arguments, yeah sure. Tell me, how is Psychopathy an illness? What's the underlying issue? The biochemistry involved? What is the treatment? Are there medications involved that treat it, or a certain therapies? In some ways it is advantageous to be a psychopath, in finance, especially to become a CEO. It has a higher prevalence in CEOs. So let's not make arguments based on emotions, thanks.
    And in my original post to which you replied, I specifically said ASD, not Aspergers...?? Perhaps read properly

    Right here we go. This is my last reply now.

    First of all, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. You cannot say that whether I or you consider Psychopathy or Autism to be a disorder is a matter of opinion, it is out of our hands, and has been decided by people far more superior in expertise than ourselves. It is not opinion, but evidence-based, peer-reviewed knowledge. Be humble, and recognise that sweetheart.

    Secondly, a disorder does not require a 'biochemistry' in order to be classified as such. Many disorders do not. The view that in order for a disorder to exist it must have some physical component is decades old.

    But as it so happens. There is a physical component to psychopathy. Psychopathy is often associated with abnormal functioning in the amygdala and the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. The amygdala is critical in reinforcement associations- involving both reward and punishment, and also in regards to facial expression processing. The vmPFC is responsible for decision making, including processing of risk and fear.

    Also, you do not know what Psychopathy is. Perhaps you should look at the criteria.

    -glib and superficial charm
    • grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
    • need for stimulation
    • pathological lying
    • cunning and manipulativeness
    • lack of remorse or guilt
    • shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    • callousness and lack of empathy
    • parasitic lifestyle
    • poor behavioral controls
    • sexual promiscuity
    • early behavior problems
    • lack of realistic long-term goals
    • impulsivity
    • irresponsibility
    • failure to accept responsibility for own actions
    • many short-term marital relationships
    • juvenile delinquency
    • revocation of conditional release
    • criminal versatility

    Assessed in a semi-structured interview style, in order to be diagnosed with Psychopathy you need to fulfill such criteria to the extent where you score 30 (the maximum being 40). Tell me how you can score 30 using this criteria, and still have your Psychopathy be considered 'advantageous'.

    Please keep in mind that CEO's are just as likely to have mental illness as the general population, in fact I'm pretty sure they're more prone to depression and addiction.

    Also, please don't try and patronise me and suggest that my knowledge is based on opinion, it's based on evidence based research. What's your hippy dippy, conspiracy theory (the pharmaceuticals are out to get us) attitude based on? Which journal article?



    Edit: I realise how we are massively derailing the thread here. So reply to me via PM.

    Also Brahmin, I'm about to have an aneurysm from dealing with what appears to be Tweelde Dum and Tweedle Dee judging by yours and Electrospective's posts. I have not read your post because whilst I can cope with many things, but stubborn, arrogance is not one of them. But I might see what pearls of wisdom you so wanted to bestow on me tomorrow. I might not.
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    Absolutely, unquestionably YES.

    Even if has a similar cause to homosexuality, the reason why we do not consider homosexuality a 'disorder' as such is down to the crucial notion of consent. What two consenting adults get up to together is nobody else's business - it does not harm anybody per se. Furthermore, the love between two people who happen to be of the same gender is reciprocal - whereas the 'love' a paedophile may feel for a child involves a one way, exploitative dynamic.

    Unlike adults, children do not have the emotional maturity to engage in sexual relations. Notwithstanding their lack of physical maturity, i.e no hormones or puberty.
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    I said Aspergers, not Autism. Oh wait, my bad, Aspergers isn't in the latest DSM. But you know what I mean.

    They are just different. Emotions won't change my opinion, sorry. Evidence and arguments, yeah sure. Tell me, how is Psychopathy an illness? What's the underlying issue? The biochemistry involved? What is the treatment? Are there medications involved that treat it, or a certain therapies? In some ways it is advantageous to be a psychopath, in finance, especially to become a CEO. It has a higher prevalence in CEOs. So let's not make arguments based on emotions, thanks.
    I have probably what one would determine as 'social avoidance' (disorder), and that is just an extreme of normal behavior... but because it is sufficiently maladaptive, I would probably class it as 'an illness'.
    You know an illness is something which causes harm. Though psychopathy can have positive effects, it can also cause considerable detrimental effects - on relationships etc. Think 'Dexter', for a most extreme case.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    And in my original post to which you replied, I specifically said ASD, not Aspergers...?? Perhaps read properly

    Right here we go. This is my last reply now.

    First of all, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. You cannot say that whether I or you consider Psychopathy or Autism to be a disorder is a matter of opinion, it is out of our hands, and has been decided by people far more superior in expertise than ourselves. It is not opinion, but evidence-based, peer-reviewed knowledge. Be humble, and recognise that sweetheart.

    Secondly, a disorder does not require a 'biochemistry' in order to be classified as such. Many disorders do not. The view that in order for a disorder to exist it must have some physical component is decades old.

    But as it so happens. There is a physical component to psychopathy. Psychopathy is often associated with abnormal functioning in the amygdala and the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. The amygdala is critical in reinforcement associations- involving both reward and punishment, and also in regards to facial expression processing. The vmPFC is responsible for decision making, including processing of risk and fear.

    Also, you do not know what Psychopathy is. Perhaps you should look at the criteria.

    -glib and superficial charm
    • grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
    • need for stimulation
    • pathological lying
    • cunning and manipulativeness
    • lack of remorse or guilt
    • shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    • callousness and lack of empathy
    • parasitic lifestyle
    • poor behavioral controls
    • sexual promiscuity
    • early behavior problems
    • lack of realistic long-term goals
    • impulsivity
    • irresponsibility
    • failure to accept responsibility for own actions
    • many short-term marital relationships
    • juvenile delinquency
    • revocation of conditional release
    • criminal versatility

    Assessed in a semi-structured interview style, in order to be diagnosed with Psychopathy you need to fulfill such criteria to the extent where you score 30 (the maximum being 40). Tell me how you can score 30 using this criteria, and still have your Psychopathy be considered 'advantageous'.

    Please keep in mind that CEO's are just as likely to have mental illness as the general population, in fact I'm pretty sure they're more prone to depression and addiction.

    Also, please don't try and patronise me and suggest that my knowledge is based on opinion, it's based on evidence based research. What's your hippy dippy, conspiracy theory (the pharmaceuticals are out to get us) attitude based on? Which journal article?
    I said Aspergers, you said Autism. Given that Aspergers is a form of Autism, it wasn't a stretch was it?

    I am familiar with psychopathy and Hare's PCL-R. The anatomy of a psychopath will of course be different then non-psychopaths. That's a given, they think and behave in a different manner. Just like how a black cab driver's brain will be different then non cab drivers.

    And it is not agreed by all professionals that psychopathy is a mental disorder, it isn't even in the DSM. But anti-social personality disorder is, and that's the closest thing to it.

    I didn't say they are out to get us, but big pharma are the only ones benefitting from this whole thing, where every difference is some sort of illness.

    I read quite an interesting book on psychopathy, The Psychopath Test, Jon Ronson. You might want to read it.
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    I have probably what one would determine as 'social avoidance' (disorder), and that is just an extreme of normal behavior... but because it is sufficiently maladaptive, I would probably class it as 'an illness'.
    You know an illness is something which causes harm. Though psychopathy can have positive effects, it can also cause considerable detrimental effects - on relationships etc. Think 'Dexter', for a most extreme case.
    Dexter was quite caring actually.

    I'm not purposefully trying to offend you, but every bad thing/harmful thing about us is not a disorder.
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    How can you possibly compare people who are attracted to someone of the same gender to a person who molests children and emotionally damages them for life?
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    (Original post by Electrospective)
    Fun fact: 1920s Germany was the best time to be gay (in history), there were gay magazines in circulation, public gay bars, unfortunately the Nazis came in and everyone went backwards and it's taken almost 100 years to get back to that point.




    Unfortunately not. Universities are full of bratty leftists now.

    Oh and yeah, it's sickening how everything is a disorder now. I'm questioning dyslexia now. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...academics.html

    If you look through the DSM V, it's ridiculous.
    Since I'm doing German A Level (and will do at uni) that is actually a fun fact lmao. Thank you.
 
 
 
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