Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    That given the issues the Muslim world has and the abhorrent treatment of minorities and females asking a feminist to be concerned with one beach in France rather than the wide scale abuse that is Islam and Muslim culture is rather Ironic.
    So your argument essentially is: this is bad but theres worse things that are happening out there therefore we should allow this to happen?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    It is. Women of all faiths should have the freedom to choose how they dress.


    We can't claim to have a monopoly on freedom if that freedom is not extended to Muslims.
    Personally I see it as the mayor being a pervert. He just wants to see some skin. No one cares when men cover up...They only care when women cover up, in what appears to be basically a wet suit

    People could say "Oh they're forced to wear it" but honestly, it looks quite tight that it's highly unlikely that they were forced to wear it and if they were indeed made to wear said clothes, then they'd be confined to the indoors. You can't expect people to integrate when you alienate people

    EDIT: IT also appears that Jewish caps and Christian crosses are totally allowed on this beach... so this whole "It's because of secularism" is a **** argument, because it's a cop out
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tammie123)
    So your argument essentially is: this is bad but theres worse things that are happening out there therefore we should allow this to happen?
    Basically...yeah that is his view. He doesn't care that it happens in France "because it happens elsewhere too"... Ironically, he likes to point out to people that they are making "whataboutery" arguments and he is doing the very damn same thing
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Personally I see it as the mayor being a pervert. He just wants to see some skin. No one cares when men cover up...They only care when women cover up, in what appears to be basically a wet suit
    Exactly, it's total nonsense when people say ''blahblahblah France doesn't need to make an exception for religion'', when they're quite clearly making an exception for religion by defining which is basically as a wet suit as a religious symbol.

    (Original post by The_Internet)
    People could say "Oh they're forced to wear it" but honestly, it looks quite tight that it's highly unlikely that they were forced to wear it and if they were indeed made to wear said clothes, then they'd be confined to the indoors. You can't expect people to integrate when you alienate people
    That's another thing, some women may be forced to wear the so called burqini, but that's not a reason for a blanket ban. Should we ban hats in case your controlling mother forces you to wear that goofy hat you don't like?


    It's complete hypocrisy that people claim to be liberal by throw their values away as soon as Islam comes up.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 1010marina)
    I disagree... You can choose to wear a wet suit or rash vest or a bikini or a swimsuit, but the burkini is not a choice in the same way. One day you might wear a bikini and the next a full body wet suit. If you are restricted to just a burkini then it is not really a choice. I find it tragically sad that some women cannot even go to a beach or participate in sport without feeling that they must dress a certain way...

    The only misogyny here is a religion that treats women as a lower class than men, than condones their abuse and subservience to their husbands. Then the people who have read this book feel they have no choice but wear a burkini or face the persecution of their god try to defend it as an example of freedom...

    :/
    The burkini is quite tight fitting. Men who MAKE their women wear certain clothes tend not to want women wearing any thing that has tight clothing. Nigella Lawson wore one. Did she not make a free choice too? Was she forced? And let's say women are forced. Do you wish to then confine them to the indoors?

    Notice how no one seems to care when men decide to cover up? Why is it OK for men to cover up, but not women? FYI, I see it as "Wear the burkini, wear a bikini. Wear whatever you want"


    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    then the Muslim women can wear that then
    So.. Muslim women can wear what is effectively a burkini without calling it a burkini... What logic
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    who the hell cares? its just a swimsuit
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_JoKeR)
    who the hell cares? its just a swimsuit
    But but but it has a MUSLAMIC name. Therefore it must be banned. See my post above. Baconandsauce seems to be OK with swimsuits, but not if they're called any thing that vaguely sounds Arabic
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    You're wrong anyway, it's the French who are making faith special



    These burkinis look similar to standard wetsuits with a T-shirt over the top, it's only because they are related to Islam the French seem to be so triggered.

    Exactly. If I, a white woman of no faith wore an equivalent of a burkini in France, and gave reasons such as body issues, would they still ban me from wearing it?
    I don't see how reasons concerning faith or body issues are any different in how they justify the removal of freedom to wear what you choose. Both likely do arise from negative cultural attitudes yes, but that doesn't justify taking away an individuals freedom.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ryanzmw)
    A wetsuit, t-shirt and hat doesn't convey your religious belief to others and perhaps pressure others into adopting similar clothing which perhaps they may not want to wear.
    So when Nigella Lawson wore one, she was conveying her religious beliefs was she? And she was pressuring others in to adopting similar clothing was she?On the flip side, how many women (and indeed men) feel like "Actually I have a bit of fat that I'm a bit insecure about, and I'd prefer to cover up" but societal pressure says that they should wear a bikini or go topless (But again, for men it's seemingly more OK to NOT go topless)
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Internet)
    But but but it has a MUSLAMIC name. Therefore it must be banned. See my post above. Baconandsauce seems to be OK with swimsuits, but not if they're called any thing vaguely Arabic name...
    LOL some people have some serious issues that need sorting, and soon.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    Exactly. If I, a white woman of no faith wore an equivalent of a burkini in France, and gave reasons such as body issues, would they still ban me from wearing it?
    I don't see how reasons concerning faith or body issues are any different in how they justify the removal of freedom to wear what you choose.
    If a Muslim woman just said it's not a burqini, it's a loose fitting wet suit and that she's afraid of sun burn would the police be forced to leave her alone or get out the lie detector? :rofl: It's completely intrusive going after people's personal clothing choices
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I was reading the article of the Egyptian vs German womens volleyball game at the Olympics and the furore was over the difference between both outfits. The Egyptian women were naturally playing the game fully covered with a hijab whilst the German team were wearing tiny little panties and a sports bra and the comments were pathetic, everyone saying the Egyptian women were "oppressed" and looked ridiculous etc and had zilch to say about the other woman. If you ask me both uniforms were ridiculous, yes there was no reason for the Muslim women to be that fully covered but there was equally no reason for the non-Muslim women to be that uncovered! so basically the message they wanted to get across is that if you don't want to be perceived as "oppressed" then play the game near-naked. Some people are so dumb...
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Brahmin of Booty)
    It is. Women of all faiths should have the freedom to choose how they dress.


    We can't claim to have a monopoly on freedom if that freedom is not extended to Muslims.
    I am curious what you 2 think of full-body Burkas and their implications as a possible security risk? Should they be allowed?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ELVsLP)
    I was reading the article of the Egyptian vs German womens volleyball game at the Olympics and the furore was over the difference between both outfits. The Egyptian women were naturally playing the game fully covered with a hijab whilst the German team were wearing tiny little panties and a sports bra and the comments were pathetic, everyone saying the Egyptian women were "oppressed" and looked ridiculous etc and had zilch to say about the other woman. If you ask me both uniforms were ridiculous, yes there was no reason for the Muslim women to be that fully covered but there was equally no reason for the non-Muslim women to be that uncovered! so basically the message they wanted to get across is that if you don't want to be perceived as "oppressed" then play the game near-naked. Some people are so dumb...
    It doesn't even matter, it's a personal choice for both sets of women.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Internet)
    So when Nigella Lawson wore one, she was conveying her religious beliefs was she? And she was pressuring others in to adopting similar clothing was she?On the flip side, how many women (and indeed men) feel like "Actually I have a bit of fat that I'm a bit insecure about, and I'd prefer to cover up" but societal pressure says that they should wear a bikini or go topless (But again, for men it's seemingly more OK to NOT go topless)
    Well, thanks for that. So you will agree that these kind of pressures exist in society since you've gone ahead and made this comparison for me. Wearing something in public can pressure others. Now the difference between these two cases are according to the Islamic teaching women HAVE TO DRESS MODERATELY, unlike people hiding fat out of insecurity. In fact you even said it yourself!
    "I'd prefer to cover up."
    Surely you can see the difference lol
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 1010marina)
    I disagree... You can choose to wear a wet suit or rash vest or a bikini or a swimsuit, but the burkini is not a choice in the same way. One day you might wear a bikini and the next a full body wet suit. If you are restricted to just a burkini then it is not really a choice. I find it tragically sad that some women cannot even go to a beach or participate in sport without feeling that they must dress a certain way...

    The only misogyny here is a religion that treats women as a lower class than men, than condones their abuse and subservience to their husbands. Then the people who have read this book feel they have no choice but wear a burkini or face the persecution of their god try to defend it as an example of freedom...

    :/
    You don't spot the contradiction here?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Galaxie501)
    I am curious what you 2 think of full-body Burkas and their implications as a possible security risk? Should they be allowed?
    Clothing does not objectively harm others or infringe upon their rights and thus should not be controlled by the state.


    Full body burqas should be allowed.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    A muslim would argue that

    A non muslim sees it as a from of enforced misogyny.

    Perhaps rather than Muslims trying to tell us we are wrong they go somewhere else that supports their views and let us have our own views than you very much.
    There seem to be more non Muslims on this thread than Muslims, who disagree with you... You seem to basically be one of two people who actually support this ban
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ryanzmw)
    Well, thanks for that. So you will agree that these kind of pressures exist in society since you've gone ahead and made this comparison for me. Wearing something in public can pressure others. Now the difference between these two cases are according to the Islamic teaching women HAVE TO DRESS MODERATELY, unlike people hiding fat out of insecurity. In fact you even said it yourself!
    "I'd prefer to cover up."
    Surely you can see the difference lol
    Both can cause public pressure, however if we have a MIX of both burkinis, wetsuits, bikinis, onesuits etc... then people might eventually think "I can wear whatever I want to the beach"

    My point is that this isn't something that only Muslim women may want to wear...
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The_Internet)
    The burkini is quite tight fitting. Men who MAKE their women wear certain clothes tend not to want women wearing any thing that has tight clothing. Nigella Lawson wore one. Did she not make a free choice too? Was she forced? And let's say women are forced. Do you wish to then confine them to the indoors?

    Notice how no one seems to care when men decide to cover up? Why is it OK for men to cover up, but not women? FYI, I see it as "Wear the burkini, wear a bikini. Wear whatever you want"




    So.. Muslim women can wear what is effectively a burkini without calling it a burkini... What logic
    My point is that if you choose to follow your religion you do not then choose to wear a burkini, you must wear one or you cannot swim. Nigella Lawson did not wear a burkini out of religious devotion, she wore one because her husband didn't want her to get a tan.

    It is rarer that men are encouraged to remain covered up from head to toe because otherwise they are dressing provocatively and god thinks women will be seduced otherwise. Many women have no choice in the matter and for the ones that believe they do, it is often an illusion. If not wearing a burkini means you are disrespecting your god then wearing a burkini or not is not the entire decision, is it?
 
 
 
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.