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    (Original post by RobML)
    Yeah kind of falling asleep and got lost there.

    anyway

    You say suffering can be good, which still means there is bad suffering. God still allows bad things to happen.
    The only defense against that I can conceive of is that all suffering is good, and by extension everything is good and therefore there is no bad and evil. But then morality just becomes meaningless.
    The suffering itself isn't good per se but the reasons behind allowing it to happen can be good. Kinda like the lesser of the two evils. So morality is maintained.

    As another example a man commits evil. God doesn't stop him so this man can later learn from his mistakes and become a better person. Idk this might not be the best example.
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    Whether or not something is pre-determined you still have to make the choice at some point that you're going to/ not going to do it. It could be pre-determined what you're going to have for tea on the 19th March 2020, but you still need to make that choice what you're going to have and something tells me you don't plan your meals that far ahead.

    Regarding your other points:
    1) He invented something for cutting things knowing full well that could (and would) be used for cutting people as well. Anything else is irrelevant.
    2.) That's correct, but people still need to make the choice what to use it for.. Free will, blah blah..
    3. (And this refers to the conversation you're having with Champ as well.. Let's not get you involved in two debates at once and confuse things):

    There's hardly any physical objects in this world that can't be used in some way to kill or harm. I could whack someone over the head with a bible if I wanted to.

    If you wanted to remove ALL suffering, there's only two options.. One is to remove all physical harm by wrapping us in cotton wool for the rest of our lives.. Oh wait that wouldn't work, you can smother people with cotton wool. So basically just remove everything physical and let us float in nothingness with no people around us in case we punch them. That sounds like worse suffering to me that what goes on in this world. So the only other option is to remove all free will to stop us doing bad things. In other words we become mindless zombies only being able to feel God pulling our strings doing what He wants us to do... Making us live a perfect life with perfect things where we don't serve a purpose, just kind of watching a movie in first person. Doing things we might not want to do.

    Suffering may be bad, but I can guarantee its not anywhere near as bad as any of those two options. I think you'd agree with that.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    What I'm saying is that the choices we make are ultimately the doing of God, and therefore God is responsible for all our bad choices.

    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    The suffering itself isn't good per se but the reasons behind allowing it to happen can be good. Kinda like the lesser of the two evils. So morality is maintained.

    As another example a man commits evil. God doesn't stop him so this man can later learn from his mistakes and become a better person. Idk this might not be the best example.
    Both of you seem to be forgetting the omnipotence of God- you're still implying the existence of evil and suffering as if it's necessary for greater good, but it is only necessary if God does not have the ability to make things otherwise. In which case God is not omnipotent.
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    1.God isn't accountable to anyone and as he will never be punished he can do whatever.
    2.There's also no-one from who he could have obtained any sort of moral code, so he might not believe that he has a duty to stop suffering.
    3.How can you explain suffering to someone who has never suffered?
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    A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

    A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

    "God created everything?", the professor asked.

    "Yes sir, he certainly did", the student replied.

    The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

    The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God was a myth.

    Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, Professor?"

    "Of course", replied the professor.

    The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

    The other students snickered at the young man's question.

    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-273C) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. What we have created is a word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

    The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

    The professor responded, "Of course it does."

    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colours and study the various wavelengths of each colour. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

    Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when people do not have God's love present in their heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down. The young man's name -- Albert Einstein


    Of course, Abraham Lincoln taught us that "the problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is very hard to verify their source", and many people have said that this story did not, in fact, involve Einstein, and more still that it never actually happened at all, but I have left it 'as-is', albeit with a few formatting changes to make it fit better on TSR.
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    (Original post by SummerStrawberry)
    A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

    A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

    "God created everything?", the professor asked.

    "Yes sir, he certainly did", the student replied.

    The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

    The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God was a myth.

    Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, Professor?"

    "Of course", replied the professor.

    The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

    The other students snickered at the young man's question.

    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-273C) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. What we have created is a word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

    The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

    The professor responded, "Of course it does."

    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colours and study the various wavelengths of each colour. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

    Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when people do not have God's love present in their heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
    The problem still remains. God allows their absence when they has the ability to never allow their absence, and since absence = evil, then we're back to square one with "God allows evil when they have the ability to never allow evil"
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    (Original post by Kadak)
    Do you just make threads like these to get the answers you want ?Curious.
    Leave our David alone
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Both of you seem to be forgetting the omnipotence of God- you're still implying the existence of evil and suffering as if it's necessary for greater good, but it is only necessary if God does not have the ability to make things otherwise. In which case God is not omnipotent.
    You're making the assumption that any action which involves suffering is "bad" by definition. Suffering which provides a greater good might be "more good" than greater good on its own without suffering.

    Jesus either dies to show his love or he just says he loves you.

    While the former scenario contains suffering you can't objectively determine which one is the more good action.

    Also, God creates a world where evil can exist or God creates a world where evil does not exist. What's stopping me from saying God creating the world without evil is the more cruel action?
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    (Original post by RobML)
    The problem still remains. God allows their absence when they has the ability to never allow their absence, and since absence = evil, then we're back to square one with "God allows evil when they have the ability to never allow evil"
    What if, then, there's a limit to God and his/her abilities? A universe with God everywhere would be, simply, God - one and the same. Assuming it isn't (simply because it's easier for the line of argument), then because evil exists, surely it must be that God is absent in some places.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    You're making the assumption that any action which involves suffering is "bad" by definition. Suffering which provides a greater good might be "more good" than greater good on its own without suffering.

    Jesus either dies to show his love or he just says he loves you.

    While the former scenario contains suffering you can't objectively determine which one is the more good action.

    Also, God creates a world where evil can exist or God creates a world where evil does not exist. What's stopping me from saying God creating the world without evil is the more cruel action?
    If God is the creator of everything, they are also the creator of morality. By definition, evil is that aspect of morality God does not accept. An omnibenevolent God does not allow evil to exist, yet according to all sources that assume such a God, evil does exist. So again we're back at square one.

    "Jesus either dies to show his love or he just says he loves you"

    Death is an evil according to the religious traditions in which Jesus plays a part.

    (Original post by SummerStrawberry)
    What if, then, there's a limit to God and his/her abilities? A universe with God everywhere would be, simply, God - one and the same. Assuming it isn't (simply because it's easier for the line of argument), then because evil exists, surely it must be that God is absent in some places.
    Then God isn't omnipotent, and also did not create everything.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Then God isn't omnipotent, and also did not create everything.
    The definition of omnipotent is to have unlimited power, so by definition of having a limit to his/her power, God is not omnipotent.

    When I first saw this thread, I instantly thought of the Simulation Argument, but elected not to use it; I've been working quite extensively with it recently, so it would seem likely that my frame of reference for reading this has been consequently affected. Proverbs 4:23 is an excellent passage to show this - "Be careful what you think, because your thoughts run your life." - NCV. "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it." - NIV. Different cultures would see the different versions, and interpret them differently. You could interpret the NIV version as referring to the metaphorical heart, and thoughts, as the author of the NCV version has done, or you could interpret it as referring to the actual heart. It tells you to look after your heart, because it pumps blood around your body, the contents of which let you do what you do - by extension, "everything you do flows from [the heart]". A psychologist would read this differently to a cardiologist by virtue of the things about which they think (the irony is that this is the point that one interpretation makes). The Bible is not infallible because it relies on humans.

    I believe that God has given us two very important gifts to understand our place in the world:
    The first is the Bible. It gives us a rough idea of what's going on - who's who and what's what. It's there to try to stop us from making a few silly mistakes; basic guidance in the form of an 'instruction manual for life', if you will.
    The second, and most powerful, is our conscience. Our 'gut instinct' of what's right. We can reason and logically work out things, but conscience is often the final arbitrator in decisions of right and wrong, and each one of us is pretty similar in how our conscience works. We can all agree that murder is wrong, for example.

    I think that we often place too much emphasis on the former rather than the latter, and that we should pay attention to what 'feels right' to our conscience. The Bible is excellent for reference - it's the word of God, after all - but it is, as we have just proven, not infallible because we aren't.

    In answer to the question of suffering, the old adage comes to mind: "that which doesn't kill you only makes you stronger". And for that which does kill you, there's always the prospect of heaven.
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    The "god" you speak of, which we will assume does exist for the context of this question, doesn't care. That 'free will' crap just makes him an apathetic scumbag who still demands our love and affection even though he doesn't care about us. An apathetic scumbag who is not worthy of our praise and worship.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    If God is the creator of everything, they are also the creator of morality. By definition, evil is that aspect of morality God does not accept. An omnibenevolent God does not allow evil to exist, yet according to all sources that assume such a God, evil does exist. So again we're back at square one.

    "Jesus either dies to show his love or he just says he loves you"

    Death is an evil according to the religious traditions in which Jesus plays a part.

    Then God isn't omnipotent, and also did not create everything.
    How do you prove that?

    If God commits an action of evil, then He is not omnibenevelont. But how do you objectively prove creating evil is an action of committing evil in itself, specifically by God?
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Jehovah's Witnesses are a disgusting cult

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    And you say this because....? I guarantee you don't even know much about the religion, you're just assuming the false things you hear about them!
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    To test us
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    It doesn't allow suffering because it isn't real.

    Get over it.
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    (Original post by PrincessZee)
    And you say this because....? I guarantee you don't even know much about the religion, you're just assuming the false things you hear about them!
    They insist on knocking on peoples' doors, which is ridiculously annoying, especially when it happens week after week. This isn't some stereotype btw. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witne.../door-to-door/ explains why JW's do this.
    Also, I cannot accept the views on blood transfusions, in that they refuse transfusions in the face of certain death. Especially when they make that decision on behalf of a child. http://adc.bmj.com/content/90/7/715.full
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    But that's not allowing something to happen. That's giving someone the choice of doing good or bad, and that someone messing up and doing the wrong thing.

    Similar to what someone else rightly posted on here, whoever invented the knife did so knowing it could be used for good, but also that it could kill people, and that it WOULD be used for killing by some people. That person doesn't get the blame for every death involving a knife since. Because, as the post also rightly said, the knife isn't just going to disappear before it can hurt someone.

    I genuinely believe that every single one of us is born with a path decided for us, which will lead to success and happiness, but it's so so easy to stray off that path with the free will that allows us to do anything good or bad. It's all about what path you decide to follow. The test is if you can stay on the right path avoiding any temptation using your own free will.
    By definition, free will is God allowing us to do whatever we want and thus by extension allowing suffering to exist.

    The "life is a test" mantra is also incredibly flawed because a test is only applicable in the presence of doubt. You don't nor cannot test someone if you 100% know the outcome in advance.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    How do you prove that?

    If God commits an action of evil, then He is not omnibenevelont. But how do you objectively prove creating evil is an action of committing evil in itself, specifically by God?
    Creating an action and commiting an action are one and the same.
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    (Original post by SummerStrawberry)
    A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

    A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

    "God created everything?", the professor asked.

    "Yes sir, he certainly did", the student replied.

    The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

    The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God was a myth.

    Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, Professor?"

    "Of course", replied the professor.

    The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

    "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

    The other students snickered at the young man's question.

    The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-273C) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. What we have created is a word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

    The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

    The professor responded, "Of course it does."

    The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colours and study the various wavelengths of each colour. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

    Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

    Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when people do not have God's love present in their heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down. The young man's name -- Albert Einstein


    Of course, Abraham Lincoln taught us that "the problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is very hard to verify their source", and many people have said that this story did not, in fact, involve Einstein, and more still that it never actually happened at all, but I have left it 'as-is', albeit with a few formatting changes to make it fit better on TSR.
    That story is an obvious and well-known fabrication, Einstein said no such thing. In fact, we know that Einstein considered the concept of a personal god childish.

    Second, my inner chemist kicks in with the excerpt about heat. First off, what we describe as cold isn't the absence of heat. Heat, which is just movement of atoms, disappears at 0 K, but this temperature is in fact theoretical. Due to the nature of reality this temperature can never be reached and thus atoms are always vibrating no matter what. Therefore by that absurd definition everything is always hot. The point is that cold is a relative term. No one can deny that it is cold in the Arctic despite the fact that all the atoms there are moving and thus "hot" going by that story's unscientific hogwash. Every time we feel cold we are still very much full of heat.

    Second, darkness IS a thing. This is obvious to anyone that has eyes and come to think of it, to everyone who is blind too! Just because it cannot be measured as an independent quantity does not mean it isn't a thing. Describing darkness as the absence of light does not make it any less of a thing than describing tall as the absence of short does.

    Moreover, I find if pretty funny that the text then tries to extrapolate that to evil implying that it isn't a real thing unto itself (whatever the hell that means). Most of the major religions are pretty clear that evil is definitely real and that's it the work of Satan or some form of adversary to God.

    In short, as well as that story being an invention, it employs poor science and tortured logic.
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    (Original post by Tetragon213)
    They insist on knocking on peoples' doors, which is ridiculously annoying, especially when it happens week after week. This isn't some stereotype btw. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witne.../door-to-door/ explains why JW's do this.
    Also, I cannot accept the views on blood transfusions, in that they refuse transfusions in the face of certain death. Especially when they make that decision on behalf of a child. http://adc.bmj.com/content/90/7/715.full
    also http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10273064.html
 
 
 
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