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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    The Big Bang did not happen in a space, space and time came into existence with the Big Bang.
    Oooh! good one, I like your reply. Well what about the atoms and everything else, where did they come from?
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    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    Appealing to popularity as a proof is ridiculous, your idea that a Christian was once an atheist as some kind of evidence is even more stupid, I was once a Christian now I am an atheist, would you regard that as proof that Christianity is false?
    Popularity is not why I am Christian, and it is by no means a reason for anybody to be Christian. I just mentioned it because it suggests that there was a powerful reason for so, so many people to give their lives to Jesus.

    Just out of interest, why did you stop believing?
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    (Original post by Paranoid_Glitch)
    Personally i believe that God created the universe. For oxygen levels on Earth to be just right and for forces like Gravity to be just right for mankind to exist couldn't be simply coincidental.
    You do realise that there was originally very little, if any, atmospheric oxygen on Earth, and that what we have was created by the first life forms, don't you?
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Only just seen this post. TSR never notified me that I had been quoted



    He doesn't explicitly say that word for word. But OP says "it couldn't be simply be based on chance". If there is a probability, no matter how small, then it is possible for something to happen by mere chance. My issue is him saying that something can't happen by chance. Oxford English Dictionary defines chance as:





    Chance cannot be ruled out in this scenario. No matter how unlikely the event might be, it is still possible. There have been cases where firing squads have missed. It isn't an unfathomable situation. Plus firing squads often use fake bullets, although they don't tell the shooters which one has the fake bullets. It tends to help psychologically reassure firers that they most probably didn't kill the person.



    With something like gambling, if someone gets too many winning streaks, it does raise suspicion as it is an area cheating often does take place, and there is a great motive to cheat. So it is understandable that it would raise suspicion.



    I only used the eternal oscillating universe as a simple alternative. But assuming this universe was the only universe; is this arrangement of particles any less likely than any other arrangement of particles? To use an example:

    Imagine we have a million ball lottery and we only dispensed one numbered ball, and we only ran this lottery once. The ball with the number 323 comes out. Would that be particularly interesting? Not really. However, if we attached some significance to this number and considered this number somehow special, then people might be surprised or shocked. But why? It was just as likely as any other number to be picked isn't it?

    People attach too much significance to this arrangement of particles, when surely every other arrangement was just as likely/unlikely? What is so perfect about this arrangement of particles that pleads a special explanation that other arrangements of particles wouldn't?
    So does this mean you are now resorting to the miniscule chance that there might not be a God?
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    If it such claptrap, then why is it now one of the most popular "religions" today?
    Congratulations! You have just introduced to this discussion the first mention of the Eat excrement! Billions of flies cannot be wrong argument.
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    (Original post by Regina.iri)
    Oooh! good one, I like your reply. Well what about the atoms and everything else, where did they come from?
    Well atoms aren't the smallest particles....by a looooooonnngggg way. And are composed of smaller particles. So atoms and molecules are formed from an arrangement of other particles. I say particles but you really cannot assume these to be sphere like objects floating in space. Not only is an electron considered to be point like with no magnitude but it also behaves as a spread out wave in space. Even more confusingly it can be split into two particles/properties. So certain conditions actually create certain particles.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    So does this mean you are now resorting to the miniscule chance that there might not be a God?
    Are you making the statement that the odds are wholly in favour of the God hypothesis, and that God is the single most probable explanation?
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Are you making the statement that the odds are wholly in favour of the God hypothesis, and that God is the single most probable explanation?
    I'd be interested to know what other factors you'd count in, aside from God and chance? And, as some (atheist) scientist once confirmed, the chance of the Big Bang not going out with too much or too little force for the Universe to exist, is about 1 in 10000000000000000. That's a pretty small figure!
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    I'd be interested to know what other factors you'd count in, aside from God and chance? And, as some (atheist) scientist once confirmed, the chance of the Big Bang not going out with too much or too little force for the Universe to exist, is about 1 in 10000000000000000. That's a pretty small figure!
    Do you think improbable events are impossible? According to Daily Mail, there is about a one in five trillion of winning the lottery twice, yet someone has done it.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...id-Wilkes.html

    Do you need God to explain the above, or can you agree the improbable events can still occur?

    Now, can you explain to me why the existence of God is probable?
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    That's a pretty small figure!
    But it starts from the premise that we are already known to be here.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Do you think improbable events are impossible? According to Daily Mail, there is about a one in five trillion of winning the lottery twice, yet someone has done it.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...id-Wilkes.html

    Do you need God to explain the above, or can you agree the improbable events can still occur?

    Now, can you explain to me why the existence of God is probable?
    Would you say it is more probable that someone would win the lottery twice, or not?

    I'm not trying to say that we can be absolutely certain that God exists from probability alone. That would make this out to be a very boring thread! There are other factors involved. For example, why did you go on this thread, and then stay on it, when you are so certain that God doesn't exist? If you were that certain, then there would be no reason for you to be so keen for others to think so too, because the matter of religion would have no importance to you. What does it matter what other people believe in that area? You've decided against God, so why pursue Him, if only to rebuke the idea of His existence?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    But it starts from the premise that we are already known to be here.
    I don't quite get your point. Are we discussing the chance of the Big Bang being random, or the chance of our current state of existence?
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    Would you say it is more probable that someone would win the lottery twice, or not?
    It is obviously more probable someone would not win the lottery. But that does not rule out the possibly that someone could win the lottery once, twice, thrice etc..

    I'm not trying to say that we can be absolutely certain that God exists from probability alone. That would make this out to be a very boring thread! There are other factors involved. For example, why did you go on this thread, and then stay on it, when you are so certain that God doesn't exist? If you were that certain, then there would be no reason for you to be so keen for others to think so too, because the matter of religion would have no importance to you. What does it matter what other people believe in that area? You've decided against God, so why pursue Him, if only to rebuke the idea of His existence?
    Even if I were 100% certain of any proposition, I think it important, possibly even necessary, that I challenge this proposition. I don't think any of my beliefs should be above challenging and I don't believe myself to be infallible. I could always be wrong, and the only way to know is to have my views challenged.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    I don't quite get your point. Are we discussing the chance of the Big Bang being random, or the chance of our current state of existence?
    The probability of our existence is obviously 1. But that is discussing it with hindsight and the knowledge that we exist. Given the number of stars in the universe, the probability of intelligent life at some point, even with a tiny chance on any given planet, is extremely high, near or at 1.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    It is obviously more probable someone would not win the lottery. But that does not rule out the possibly that someone could win the lottery once, twice, thrice etc..



    Even if I were 100% certain of any proposition, I think it important, possibly even necessary, that I challenge this proposition. I don't think any of my beliefs should be above challenging and I don't believe myself to be infallible. I could always be wrong, and the only way to know is to have my views challenged.
    Fair enough
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    Why does the universe have to had to come into existence? I find the idea of non-existence incredibly unbelievable - how can nothing exist? Why can't the universe just have existed eternally?
    These are genuine questions btw, personally, I'm a believer in Hinduism and thus am devout in the thought that Brahma (the creator) wished the Universe into existence.


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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    It is obviously more probable someone would not win the lottery. But that does not rule out the possibly that someone could win the lottery once, twice, thrice etc..



    Even if I were 100% certain of any proposition, I think it important, possibly even necessary, that I challenge this proposition. I don't think any of my beliefs should be above challenging and I don't believe myself to be infallible. I could always be wrong, and the only way to know is to have my views challenged.
    Forget the lottery. It's completely irrelevant as a yard stick.

    A change in the value of the 'cosmological constant' by as little as one part in 10 to the power of 120 would have rendered the universe life-prohibiting. Forget human life, that's all life. To put the enormity of that number in context, the number of seconds in the entire history of the universe is only 10 to the power of 17. This is wildly beyond winning the lottery perhaps a few million times in succession.
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    (Original post by gmahapatra)
    Why does the universe have to had to come into existence?
    Hi,

    Funnily enough, science has almost always believed that the universe has always been in existence, particularly since Isaac Newton, it was assumed the stars & planets went around in a clockwork motion and have since the start of time. Although it started with Aristotle a fair way back when science was taking its first baby steps.

    Christians were commonly ridiculed for believing the universe had a beginning and that God created it.

    However, two scientists really flipped science around in this regard, the first was Hubble who discovered that the universe was expanding and secondly Einstein whose theories of relativity backed it up.

    Also, we discovered background radiation, which is stuff that we can measure today that showed there was a huge 'explosion' about 15 billion years ago.

    Today, all cosmologists accept the fact that the universe had a beginning and that the Christians were, in fact, right all along.



    The discussion between religion and science is not as one-sided as the TSRians poundshop Dawkins would have you believe.


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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    Hi,

    Funnily enough, science has almost always believed that the universe has always been in existence, particularly since Isaac Newton, it was assumed the stars & planets went around in a clockwork motion and have since the start of time. Although it started with Aristotle a fair way back when science was taking its first baby steps.

    Christians were commonly ridiculed for believing the universe had a beginning and that God created it.

    However, two scientists really flipped science around in this regard, the first was Hubble who discovered that the universe was expanding and secondly Einstein whose theories of relativity backed it up.

    Also, we discovered background radiation, which is stuff that we can measure today that showed there was a huge 'explosion' about 15 billion years ago.

    Today, all cosmologists accept the fact that the universe had a beginning and that the Christians were, in fact, right all along.



    The discussion between religion and science is not as one-sided as the TSRians poundshop Dawkins would have you believe.


    SS
    This was really interesting - have you read John Lennox's 'Has Science buried God'? If you haven't you'll love it - he's Oxford professor of Maths and Philosophy of Science and it's a great read

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    (Original post by RomeoSantos)
    The hoax of evolution sounds interesting. I think there's enough evidence to show its a real thing

    I honestly believe it is.

    What evidence is there to show its real?.
 
 
 
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