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    (Original post by Grand High Witch)
    They accept nudist-only beaches so why not?

    It is a valid comparison for the reasons mentioned in the OP. As I said, they are two sides of the same coin: extreme exposure of the body vs. extreme covering up of the body, and both are banned in these situations for subjective feelings-based reasons.
    Are you saying that you think that the French public would accept this? Even one day with "burkinis only" on one beach caused so much uproar, it had to be cancelled.

    In that case nudism would be comparable to the Niqaab or Burqa while the burkini would be comparable to being topless on the beach and wearing only a thong, which is perfectly acceptable on French beaches.
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    (Original post by Grand High Witch)
    Nudism is banned because:

    - It represents a symbol people find distasteful and offensive (the Victorian idea that the naked human body is lustful, vulgar and immodest).

    The burkini is banned because:

    - It represents a symbol people find distasteful and offensive (misogyny, patriarchy, women being treated differently, religious conservatism).

    They are essentially two sides of the same coin: extreme covering up of the body vs extreme exposure of the body.

    So why the distinction? Why does no one bat an eye lid at nudism being banned yet people are going crazy and shouting "but muh freedoms" at the burkini being banned?

    And yes, there may be nudist beaches but it is banned in general in the West.

    For the record I don't agree with banning either, but I want to know why there are double standards.
    Hi Grand High Witch. The point you make here is actually indisputable. There is simply no cogent, objective counter argument to it. I knew this as soon as I read it, and winced at the arguments made against it, such as those by Another. It is incredible the sheer lack of thought that people like these must put into their arguments. It really leaves me aghast, and rather frustrated. Their arguments literally amount to "I feel this way, and I think (even though i have no evidence) that everyone feels the same way (because I assume that everyone is just like me), and that you are just lying that you feel differently to me just to be arch, so therefore everything should be based around how I feel"

    Of course, many, many people have no problem with nudity. That is why nudist beaches exist, and are very popular. Many many people are also highly offended by the Burkini, which is why many people either support banning it, or criticise it and make it clear that it offends them. The reverse is also true, and in the end it is entirely subjective, and neither burqinis nor public nudity should be banned from beaches. As nudity is banned though, on the grounds that some are offended by it, it is no more ridiculous to ban the burqini, given that some are offended by it.

    If you feel like you have a counter argument, read this post repeatedly, sit in a dark room, and realise that you are wrong. I shan't be replying to anyone who doesn't take this advice.
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    (Original post by Grand High Witch)
    The OP is quite specifically aimed at those who are against the burkini ban but in favour of the nudism ban. That will be a significant amount of people in this debate. If you're not one of them I am not sure why you got involved in this thread.



    You keep repeating this emotive language but discriminating against a religion is not inherently wrong in itself, or else the decision to ban polygamy would be inherently wrong. It's about looking at the ban and seeing whether it is justifiable and proportionate. It just so happens that it is not.

    ISIS will attack disbelievers in the West no matter what policies they enact. Even if what you are saying is true, we should not base government policy on what is most or least likely to result in an ISIS attack.
    Neither should we enact policy based on misguided conceptions about the Burkini symbolising oppression.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Neither should we enact policy based on misguided conceptions about the Burkini symbolising oppression.
    We shouldn't decide what people should wear at all.

    Out of interest why do you feel those conceptions are misguided about it symbolising oppression?
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    Are you saying that you think that the French public would accept this? Even one day with "burkinis only" on one beach caused so much uproar, it had to be cancelled.
    Some might, some might not. Just as some communities allow nudist beaches, whereas others do not. I still struggle to see how this supports your argument. Looking at it numerically, there appear to be more places where you can wear a burkini in France than you can be totally nude and get away with it.

    In that case nudism would be comparable to the Niqaab or Burqa while the burkini would be comparable to being topless on the beach and wearing only a thong, which is perfectly acceptable on French beaches.
    "Comparable" does not mean exactly the same in every way. Burkini and nudism, and the subjective arguments relating to banning both, are similar to the extent that a comparison can be drawn to highlight hypocrisy. If that was the case then you couldn't compare discrimination against black people with discrimination against women because they are slightly factually different.
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    (Original post by Grand High Witch)
    Some might, some might not. Just as some communities allow nudist beaches, whereas others do not. I still struggle to see how this supports your argument. Looking at it numerically, there appear to be more places where you can wear a burkini in France than you can be totally nude and get away with it.



    "Comparable" does not mean exactly the same in every way. Burkini and nudism, and the subjective arguments relating to banning both, are similar to the extent that a comparison can be drawn to highlight hypocrisy. If that was the case then you couldn't compare discrimination against black people with discrimination against women because they are slightly factually different.
    And again you are missing the point that this trend is fairly new, that can only be concluded once we know how many other cities and towns will follow suit.

    But if you're comparing them on the basis of being extremely covered vs extremely uncovered then wearing no clothes at all = exposing no skin at all, and that was already banned in France in 2010. Also, exposing only the face would be equivalent to only covering the genitals.

    If nudism could be compared to every form of religious "modesty" then where would you draw the line?
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    And again you are missing the point that this trend is fairly new, that can only be concluded once we know how many other cities and towns will follow suit.
    Then you are entering into hypotheticals. As it stands, objectively, there appear to be numerically more beaches where you can wear the burkini than where you can be fully naked.

    But if you're comparing them on the basis of being extremely covered vs extremely uncovered then wearing no clothes at all = exposing no skin at all, and that was already banned in France in 2010. Also, exposing only the face would be equivalent to only covering the genitals.
    Nudists who wear shoes will still be banned from going to a mainstream beach, so I guess they are now comparable to the burkini if to be comparable something must be identical rather than similar (which is the definition).
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    (Original post by Grand High Witch)
    Some might, some might not. Just as some communities allow nudist beaches, whereas others do not. I still struggle to see how this supports your argument. Looking at it numerically, there appear to be more places where you can wear a burkini in France than you can be totally nude and get away with it.
    I'm pretty sure that a "burkini beach" will not happen in the current context considering the absolute exasperation against Islam.

    The solution to this is to allow any clothing on the beach, nudity included. It is obvious that we would see some nudist guys immediately posing in front of every chaste and modest and pure Muslimah that would go on the beach with their protection-against-the-sun-that-only-looks-like-wetsuit-and-is-actually-empowering burkini. I'm not a nudist but would be very tempted to express my freedom to wear what I want before them.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Neither should we enact policy based on misguided conceptions about the Burkini symbolising oppression.
    But it does.
    If a Muslim woman truly only cared about modesty, she would not mind that the traditional Muslim symbol was banned, she would wear different clothes to cover up and be modest.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    You make yourself sound like an 80 IQ Daily Mail reader when you call the police the fashion police.
    Ahaha, you laughed didn't you? ;3
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    As nudity is banned though, on the grounds that some are offended by it, it is no more ridiculous to ban the burqini, given that some are offended by it.

    If you feel like you have a counter argument, read this post repeatedly, sit in a dark room, and realise that you are wrong. I shan't be replying to anyone who doesn't take this advice.


    It's not an offence to be naked in public in England and Wales but it does become an offence if it can be proved the person stripped off with the intention to upset and shock. The complainant has to prove this.

    If you can prove the burkini is worn with the intention to upset and shock then no reason that shouldn't be an offence, blanket ban though, nar.
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    (Original post by Applepiex3)
    Ahaha, you laughed didn't you? ;3
    Not out loud.

    And well laughing with someone vs laughing at someone. I think you can see which one my reaction was closer to.
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    The Burkini is not a form of western clothing, therefore not welcome in France


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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Hi Grand High Witch. The point you make here is actually indisputable. There is simply no cogent, objective counter argument to it. I knew this as soon as I read it, and winced at the arguments made against it, such as those by Another. It is incredible the sheer lack of thought that people like these must put into their arguments. It really leaves me aghast, and rather frustrated. Their arguments literally amount to "I feel this way, and I think (even though i have no evidence) that everyone feels the same way (because I assume that everyone is just like me), and that you are just lying that you feel differently to me just to be arch, so therefore everything should be based around how I feel"

    Of course, many, many people have no problem with nudity. That is why nudist beaches exist, and are very popular. Many many people are also highly offended by the Burkini, which is why many people either support banning it, or criticise it and make it clear that it offends them. The reverse is also true, and in the end it is entirely subjective, and neither burqinis nor public nudity should be banned from beaches. As nudity is banned though, on the grounds that some are offended by it, it is no more ridiculous to ban the burqini, given that some are offended by it.

    If you feel like you have a counter argument, read this post repeatedly, sit in a dark room, and realise that you are wrong. I shan't be replying to anyone who doesn't take this advice.
    Do you have any sources for your rather astronomical claims? Such as many many people hating the burkini
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Do you have any sources for your rather astronomical claims? Such as many many people hating the burkini
    The great rise in right wing parties in Europe is a very clear signal for this.
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    The burkini is banned because:

    - It represents a symbol people find distasteful and offensive (misogyny, patriarchy, women being treated differently, religious conservatism).
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    It's a very pertinent question. No doubt people will righteously shout you down for this.

    The fact is we all know the answer. Islam is militant, authoritarian and seeks conquest, with the threat of violence. Secularism and freedom for women to show their bodies, will not use violence and has no teeth to defend itself, especially while liberals refuse to associate or show any solidarity with any conservative patriots who want to fight for the very chance to preserve the liberalism they care about. Women on French beaches always went topless, I'm sure not (m)any muslims would allow that given half a chance.

    It's pure moral hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Do you have any sources for your rather astronomical claims? Such as many many people hating the burkini
    I have a source:

    An official poll (IFOP/Figaro), has just been released. 64% of the French are against the burkini on the beach, 30% are indifferent, 6% agree with it (margin of error of 3%).

    It's interesting to see that the burkini is rejected by people from every political background:
    Far left: 62% against, 33% indifferent, 5% agree
    Left: 52% against, 41% indifferent, 7% agree
    Right: 76% against, 21% indifferent, 3% agree
    Far right: 86% against, 10% indifferent, 4% agree

    http://www.ifop.com/media/poll/3460-1-study_file.pdf
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I have a source:

    An official poll (IFOP/Figaro), has just been released. 64% of the French are against the burkini on the beach, 30% are indifferent, 6% agree with it (margin of error of 3%).

    It's interesting to see that the burkini is rejected by people from every political background:
    Far left: 62% against, 33% indifferent, 5% agree
    Left: 52% against, 41% indifferent, 7% agree
    Right: 76% against, 21% indifferent, 3% agree
    Far right: 86% against, 10% indifferent, 4% agree

    http://www.ifop.com/media/poll/3460-1-study_file.pdf
    Owned.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Not out loud.

    And well laughing with someone vs laughing at someone. I think you can see which one my reaction was closer to.
    ...With me ?

    Its okay, I laugh with me too
 
 
 
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