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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Bullcrap of the highest order.*

    There has been no evidence that tuition fees deter the poor from attending university. In fact, there is really no way that statement makes sense considering they're the most likely to get all the support they need (financially) whilst at university with the full maintenance amount and mandatory access bursaries given out by universities.

    The system atm ensures anyone able to go to university can go, and in return they pay a bit of their income (after a high threshold) for a set amount of years. *

    It's completely nonsensical to claim that the poor can't afford university, if anything it's the middle class that can't.*
    Obviously you're not in the position but don't be ignorant enough to say his statement is bullcrap, you look silly. Even with loans there are people in situations where they don't have enough money to study and survive at uni at the same time.
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    (Original post by RomeoSantos)
    Obviously you're not in the position but don't be ignorant enough to say his statement is bullcrap, you look silly. Even with loans there are people in situations where they don't have enough money to study and survive at uni at the same time.
    If you read my post, I acknowledged that and pointed out which group was most susceptible to that situation.

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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Tuition Fees Dont Help the Economy

    Perhaps the most shocking aspect of the high fees regime is that it potentially burdens graduates with a lifetime of debt, while saving taxpayers little or nothing. A growing body of evidence has shown that the loan system is unsustainable. Already by 2014 it was apparent that the level of fee repayment won’t meet government estimates of long-term income, and already there is a shortfall in Business Department estimates.In 2010 the level of default, failure to repay,was estimated at 28%.The Institute for Fiscal Studies now predicts that73% will not repay in full, compared to 23% under the previous fee regime.About £90bn of the overall £200bn in student loans will remain unpaid by 2042, according to the latest projections. Accordingly, the policy consultancy London Economics finds that ‘the economic cost of the 2012-13 higher education reforms will exceed the 2010-11 system that it replaced.’A report by the Higher Education Commission in 2014 is damning: ‘The current system fails to meet our test of financial sustainability and further work needs to be undertaken to arrive at a better higher education funding model.’ It is unsatisfactory for students, universities and the state: ‘the worst of both worlds’.

    Princepieman Try reading before you make a dumb comment.
    So now you agree that we're essentially being subsidised by tax payers?

    So would you rather not contribute at all back into this subsidy or do you just want to leech off of others?

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    I think tuition fees should really be lowered, £9000 is quite a lot really. However, it's accessible even still, thanks to a very affordable and reasonable loan. A loan, so ridiculously generous, it gets written off if I can't pay it back within 30 years. I know it sounds like I'm licking the governments arse, but to be fair, its fair more generous than places like America, where the uni fees are upfront and a lot higher. The money has to come from somewhere after all I guess.
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    never going to happen anyway
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    It's not wasted money, it gets put into government cash flow to be used for other things.

    age of ~50.

    It's not a repayment plan though, it is quite literally a yearly tax to recuperate what tax payers spent on you.

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    Yes, it's not wasted, but you know exactly what I mean. Still, in the big picture, it's money that you have lost or, better to say, given for the public.

    Age of 50. Yeah like seriously, I think only a few people will arrive to that age still having to repay their debt. In my opinion, interest rate should be kept at a very minimum.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    If you read my post, I acknowledged that and pointed out which group was most susceptible to that situation.

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    ''It's completely nonsensical to claim that the poor can't afford university''

    You're completely clueless
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    (Original post by RomeoSantos)
    ''It's completely nonsensical to claim that the poor can't afford university''

    You're completely clueless
    Yeah.

    Because £8.2k + up to £3k (£5k at some places) a year in bursary funding isn't enough to live on.

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    So now you agree that we're essentially being subsidised by tax payers?

    So would you rather not contribute at all back into this subsidy or do you just want to leech off of others?

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    **** the common good, lets not pay for anything. Forget the NHS, the elderly, roads - infrastructure, public services. Every man for himself. No taxes. You like that? Taxes exist because they are supposed to go towards things for the common good e.g education. Instead of funding that we are wasting money on wars in the middle east, bailing out *****y banks, giving 'aid' to barbaric countries like Saudi Arabia that have hundreds of human rights violations.

    If we got the fat cat corporates of this world to pay their taxes then we wouldn't need to be having this conversation. Tuition would be free.

    I never said Tuition Fees weren't subsidised by the taxpayer, to think they aren't would be stupidity. I am arguing their worse for society.
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    Profoundly disagree, but will never happen anyway.

    We've had over a decade of free education. It's only fair we foot the bill for a degree.

    Wonder if there's a counter petition to raise fees lmao
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    Middle Income Graduates Pay More Than the Rich


    UniversityTuition Fees are a regressive government levy, forcing the less well-off to pay a disproportionate part of their income. Contrary to the propaganda of the current government, the high fees regime is unfair and it is certainly not risk free. It is not a requisite to take out a loan to pay for the tuition fee.Although they don’t publicise it, most universities offer a discount of 2%to 5% for fees paid upfront, £1300 or more.Similarly with the maintenance loans.If family financespermit, students can be cushioned against debt and get their degree at a cut-price rate.For parentswho can afford to send their children to private schools, the high fees regime will appear very affordable. If they don’t wish to pay upfront, they can bank the loan, earn interest on it, andwait to pay it off when their child starts earning abovethe repayment level. The government dropped plans to levy a charge for early repayment. But all but the wealthiest will haveto borrow, and the ones who will be hit hardest financially will be those from middle-earning families, who themselves gain middle-earning jobs after graduation.Interest on the loan isset at above an above inflation rate, in order to pay for the running of the scheme, and this leads to some startling calculations.According to onecalculation,those with a starting salary of £30,000 will repay a whopping £98,000 on a loan of £34,500 while those on who start at £50,000, will pay £64,000; a £34,000 differential dramatically favouring the rich over the middle earner. According to another, the real cost of a three-year degree course, repaid over 30 years including interest, could be as much as £166,150 for a graduate with a starting salary of £26,000. Even those in respected middle-earning rolessuch as teachers,managers,and health professionals may notbe able to pay back their loans with the 30-year repayment period..The level of net repayment as a percentage of income will be significant and affect the affordability criteria for buying a house. The Higher Education Commission foresees thata teacher at 35 would have difficulty securing a mortgage, as a result of the repayment commitments.The so-called ‘graduate premium’ that has been used to justify the high fees regime has been exposed by recent research to be a myth.
    It seems to be a rather crazy system that rewards high paying skill areas. Odd, huh?
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    I fundamentally disagree with Jeremy's claim. Higher education is entirely a personal advancement, as is everything we, as people, do. Basic, non-specialised education is to keep the population intelligent enough to function. It may have the benefit of boosting the collective economy, but that isn't its main purpose. Its purpose is to educate people on a personal and in depth basis. The main disagreement here is what we value. As a labour supporter, you value equality of outcome and a group mentality towards building a utopian ant colony. I value personal liberty and people actually being in control of their own lives and earnings.
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    Very Important Poster
    So, if we scrap fees, where will the money crome from? And why should a low earner pay for your education? They've already paid for your 13 free years of education. If you want to study, then you should pay for it. It's not as if you have to pay it all upfront.
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    (Original post by Person18)
    I'm shocked at the hate you're getting on this! I've signed it. Education and knowledge should be free for everyone. As a country we're investing in fracking, which I can only see as a short term solution (if you can call it solution) to a long term problem. Yes there is a shortage of money, but education should not be what suffers for it. Look at the amount of money being wasted from tax avoiders! If you have a higher tax rate for the higher wage brackets then this problem can be solved. Good luck!
    So much to learn. However, I don't think I should be expected to forego some of my income for you (or others) to get it gratis.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    , the policy consultancy London Economics finds that ‘the economic cost of the 2012-13 higher education reforms will exceed the 2010-11 system that it replaced.’.
    Would that be the same London Economics consultancy that did some work jointly commissioned by Unison and the NUS? He who pays the piper ....
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    Bearing in mind that for the majority of courses, you can find all the information online with MOOC's, Uni websites like MIT, etc.

    Apart from a minority of courses, you're not really paying for an education but more so for the piece of paper at the end of the course, get over yourselves
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    (Original post by Tiger Rag)
    So, if we scrap fees, where will the money crome from? And why should a low earner pay for your education? They've already paid for your 13 free years of education. If you want to study, then you should pay for it. It's not as if you have to pay it all upfront.
    You just regurgitating lies that the government has spread. We do have the money. How come we had the money before but suddenly don't know? How come Scotland still has the money? Of course we have the money, if corporations payed their taxes not only would we have enough money to give tuition free education but we could easily affor to pay each student £6000.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    You just regurgitating lies that the government has spread. We do have the money. How come we had the money before but suddenly don't know? How come Scotland still has the money? Of course we have the money, if corporations payed their taxes not only would we have enough money to give tuition free education but we could easily affor to pay each student £6000.
    do u even know about the strict quotas on scottish/EU funded students in scotland? how many people as a % of the population here go into higher education vs what's in england?

    Think you need to consider all factors and not just the ones that fit your agenda.

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    Literally the only reason to moan about the current student loan system is a basic incomprehension of how it works and/or feeling entitled to other people's money. If there really are droves of poor people who are spooked out of going to uni by the £9k a year (which, as a poor person, I doubt) they're clearly too dim to do five seconds of research and wouldn't cut it at uni anyway. The country loses nothing.
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    (Original post by The Awakener)
    I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?

    My Petition: Abolish University Tuition Fees

    Click this link to sign the petition:
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...65HgTz0Vxlmcf8

    Dear TSR,

    In 2012 the Coalition Government raised tuition fees to £9000 a year, which means students now face crippling debt. This shackling debt often lasts decades. Free education is a right not a privilege. We have to act now to take back what's rightfully ours!

    Young students eager to better themselves as people are facing crippling debt after they leave university unless they are born of a very wealthy family. This ensures that the wealth stays with the families who have always had it. Worse still is the number of young people denied the chance of university due to their disadvantaged background. Free education is vital if we are to have a country that utilises the most talented rather than the most fortunate. Free education is necessary for equality.

    This petition has to do well! If you agree with it please sign it and send it to all your contacts.

    Thankyou,

    The Awakener
    I agree that ALL education should be free no matter if it is under grad or post grad.....

    But how do you propose the government saves the money to do it elsewhere?

    Wouldn't it cost over 20 billion a year if memory serves me?


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