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Labour Leadership Contest 2016 Watch

  • View Poll Results: Who would you vote for - Jeremy Corbyn or Owen Smith?
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I wouldn't even agree with that in Liverpool. Derek Hatton and Militant did some absolutely abominable things in Liverpool, and in particular their policies led to the redundancy of many council workers who unnecessarily lost their jobs. It's an acme example of rigid ideology and dogma leading to harm of the people they claim to represent.

    Anyways I'm going to head off to bed, please do watch the documentary when you have a chance. It is fascinating if you're interested in British political history and the history of the Labour Party
    Will do tomorrow.

    (not in the early hours when UFC is on though )
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Neither are particularly inspiring but I think Smith can at least stave off oblivion in 2020. And he's had a real job.

    The best man for the job IMO is currently running a charity in New York.
    If David was the candidate last time we'd quite possibly have a Labour government right now....
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    AlexanderHam *appointing a militant vegan as shadow DEFRA secretary.
    Christ almighty, I forgot about that! What planet is he living on?
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I can't say I agree viz. Militant. They were an entryist organisation whose fundamental objective was to undermine and take over the Labour Party and move it away from social democratic and moderate socialist policies and enact an ideology (Trotskyism / revolutionary socialism) that is fundamentally alien to Labour traditions, to social democratic politics and to democratic norms period. I don't see how they "took on Thatcher", they spent more time attacking other people in the Labour Party.

    Just as Tony Benn and his fellow travellers like Jeremy Corbyn spent most of the 1980s attacking their colleagues and destabilising the party. It was their actions that led to the SDP split and thus prevented Labour from actually "taking on Thatcher" by defeating her in an election and reversing her policies. What Militant and the Bennites did was pure self-indulgence, not genuine political activity that would lead to a change of government (which is the only true way of "opposing" the Tories; futile protest marches and fringe meetings passing endless resolutions is more like political masturbation)

    I'd really encourage you to check out this excellent documentary about Labour in the 1980s, this episode I'm posting is about the Tony Benn and Militant issues in the party. I think it gives you a very good sense of just how obnoxious and self-absorbed Tony Benn was, and how Labour giants like Denis Healey were unfairly attacked ensuring more Labour infighting.

    A good example of Corbynite/Bennite hypocrisy is that today he cites his mandate as why all MPs should get in line and shut up, he keeps pointing out his "massive" mandate. In reality, his 57% is not particularly exceptional either in percentage terms or absolute votes. Tony Blair got 250,000 more votes than Corbyn did in his election. And John Smith got 92% of the vote in the leadership election. And yet two months after John Smith got that 92%, Corbyn started calling for a leadership challenge. This is what the hard left of the party did consistently throughout the 1980s, justifying it on the basis they were "creating a debate". In reality they ****ed the party and condemned it to years in the wilderness.

    Anyway, here's the documentary

    Thanks for posting. Will watch. You might be interested in checking out a book: The Hammer of The Left by John Golding. I read it after a poster on here recommended it *
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    I'm not a Blairite or anti-Corbyn person by any means, but have fans considered that the guy will be like 71 at the next election, and at the end of two terms, at least what a party should aim for, he will be 79?

    Is he hoping to win and then pass on to Mcdonnell or someone after 1 term?
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    AlexanderHam


    Cheers for the link, it's fascinating.

    It defies belief how history is being allowed to repeat itself, I'm halfway through and this is a perfect parody of what's happening at the momemt right down to Michael Foot's poor showing at the cenotaph.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Christ almighty, I forgot about that! What planet is he living on?
    Check that doc out, some of Tony Benn's supporters thought aliens were going to bring Socialism from outer space(I'm not joking), so I'd guess wherever they're coming here from.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Thanks for posting. Will watch. You might be interested in checking out a book: The Hammer of The Left by John Golding. I read it after a poster on here recommended it *
    Ah yes, people keep recommending that book to me. I will definitely check it out
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    AlexanderHam

    Cheers for the link, it's fascinating.

    It defies belief how history is being allowed to repeat itself, I'm halfway through and this is a perfect parody of what's happening at the momemt right down to Michael Foot's poor showing at the cenotaph.
    It is amazing, isn't it? To prevent repetition of the mistakes of history, we have to know that history. But the Cult is completely disinterested, and in any case even if they knew the history they would draw bogus conclusions. I'm increasingly coming to the position that only a new party of the centre-left can resolve this impasse.

    Owen Jones made the argument that going into the next election led by Corbyn would be bad for the Labour left because they would be completely discredited by a massive election loss and not have any influence in the party for another 20 years. That sounds massively optimistic to me; I doubt that even after a massive defeat the Corbynista will let him go. They will simply find some useful scapegoats (Red Tories, the media, MI5 etc) and weave together a highly improbable conspiracy about why they lost that time, but why they will definitely win next time.

    They have no intention of relinquishing control. In fact, I hope they do move for deselections of Labour MPs en masse. Let them deselect the 172 MPs who opposed Corbyn, let those MPs resign en masse to cause a byelection, and then stand under some kind of "inependent Labour" banner. I'm quite sure they would mostly win those byelections, leaving the official Labour Party with a rump of a few dozen MPs
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    It is amazing, isn't it? To prevent repetition of the mistakes of history, we have to know that history. But the Cult is completely disinterested, and in any case even if they knew the history they would draw bogus conclusions. I'm increasingly coming to the position that only a new party of the centre-left can resolve this impasse.

    Owen Jones made the argument that going into the next election led by Corbyn would be bad for the Labour left because they would be completely discredited by a massive election loss and not have any influence in the party for another 20 years. That sounds massively optimistic to me; I doubt that even after a massive defeat the Corbynista will let him go. They will simply find some useful scapegoats (Red Tories, the media, MI5 etc) and weave together a highly improbable conspiracy about why they lost that time, but why they will definitely win next time.

    They have no intention of relinquishing control. In fact, I hope they do move for deselections of Labour MPs en masse. Let them deselect the 172 MPs who opposed Corbyn, let those MPs resign en masse to cause a byelection, and then stand under some kind of "inependent Labour" banner. I'm quite sure they would mostly win those byelections, leaving the official Labour Party with a rump of a few dozen MPs
    I don't want to see a split but it's looking increasingly likely. I can't see the cultists accepting another leader even if Smith wins.

    The problem is unlike kicking out Militant(who were relatively few in number), if half the party are entryists it would be both impossible to form a working relationship with them if the moderates scrape a win or kick them all out due to the sheer number.

    I was familiar with Foot's manifesto being labelled "the longest suicide note in history" without knowing the gory details, I'd like to think nobody with any influence is crazy enough to call for a command economy in the 21st century, but that remains to be seen.
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    Regardless of your political leanings the Labour Party does not function in any meaningful way. The EU was the sole thing more or less uniting the Labour Party and dividing the Conservative party.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Regardless of your political leanings the Labour Party does not function in any meaningful way.
    It just keeps getting worse. Now there's a Shadow Foreign Secretary who's supposed to be meeting the French Foreign Minister yet doesn't know their name.

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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It just keeps getting worse. Now there's a Shadow Foreign Secretary who's supposed to be meeting the French Foreign Minister yet doesn't know their name.

    Leave her alone you misogynistic blairite filth
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It just keeps getting worse. Now there's a Shadow Foreign Secretary who's supposed to be meeting the French Foreign Minister yet doesn't know their name.

    In all seriousness it's not surprising. Corbyn has the genuine support of about 20Mps, the rest are people who know this is the only way they'll get cabinet experience. I'm sure thornberry knows he's a useless idiot but is pretty chuffed at being foreign sec. He'll he's probably make Russell Brand Shadow Chancellor...
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    It just keeps getting worse. Now there's a Shadow Foreign Secretary who's supposed to be meeting the French Foreign Minister yet doesn't know their name.

    When committing reputation suicide in Rochester isn't enough :laugh:
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Leave her alone you misogynistic blairite filth
    You forgot Red Tory.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    probably make Russell Brand Shadow Chancellor...
    :lol:
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Except they are genuine criticisms and he does genuinely have close associations with people who have outright stated they want all Jews in the world killed.

    Also loled @ your insinuation that one has to be pro-Israel to be dead set against Hamas as any civilised person would be - a terrorist organisation whose charter states that they aim to rid the world of Jews and who celebrated their election victory by throwing opposition politicians off of buildings to kill them and who are against all peace deals on the basis that they have to recognise Israel's right to exist, who purposely target innocent civilians and who use Palestinians as human shields in order to maximise the death toll stood further their aims. What's wrong with you?! I know you're in the cult but pull the other one :laugh:
    No doubt you have picked a nice catalogue of the most extreme parts of their history. When a country has its lands given to some other people to create a nation without their agreement, and then those people continue to expand further into that country and oppress the existing population continuously over the subsequent 70 years, at least some of that population will tend to get a bit tetchy.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    It is amazing, isn't it? To prevent repetition of the mistakes of history, we have to know that history. But the Cult is completely disinterested, and in any case even if they knew the history they would draw bogus conclusions. I'm increasingly coming to the position that only a new party of the centre-left can resolve this impasse.

    Owen Jones made the argument that going into the next election led by Corbyn would be bad for the Labour left because they would be completely discredited by a massive election loss and not have any influence in the party for another 20 years. That sounds massively optimistic to me; I doubt that even after a massive defeat the Corbynista will let him go. They will simply find some useful scapegoats (Red Tories, the media, MI5 etc) and weave together a highly improbable conspiracy about why they lost that time, but why they will definitely win next time.

    They have no intention of relinquishing control. In fact, I hope they do move for deselections of Labour MPs en masse. Let them deselect the 172 MPs who opposed Corbyn, let those MPs resign en masse to cause a byelection, and then stand under some kind of "inependent Labour" banner. I'm quite sure they would mostly win those byelections, leaving the official Labour Party with a rump of a few dozen MPs
    This is all just a bunch of personal assumptions, about electability and Corbyn supporters, mostly based on similar baseless assumption peddled in the mainstream press. There is already a centre left party the Liberal Democrats. any split in the Labour Party would just me a split in the Labour vote, resulting in less seats for both candidates.
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    Jeremy.
 
 
 
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