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    (Original post by yudothis)
    They are a set of laws, we have our set of laws. What's so hard to understand?
    No, the Ten Commandments are not just a set of laws, they are much more, they shape morals and ethics. So we wouldn't have a wonderful world if everyone just followed secular laws, which was your initials point.

    Amusing when people completely forget what they were arguing for...

    (Original post by yudothis)
    So you agree, religion has no influence on morals? Good.
    No, religion shapes morals. Laws have almost nothing to do with morals. What's so hard to understand?

    (Original post by yudothis)
    Except these perps were leaders of the Church, and they were protected by the very ups of the Church. That is vastly different to "just a few hundred out of all the millions of Christians".
    The 'very ups' of one of the strands of Christianity in a few countries - stop making Christianity and The Catholic Church (which has its flaws; one of the reasons why I am Lutheran) like a collective gang of perverts. These people are criminals, they're being prosecuted, and they'll have to face God one day. Again, this doesn't diminish the value of Christianity's teachings on morals and ethics in the world.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    No, the Ten Commandments are not just a set of laws, they are much more, they shape morals and ethics. So we wouldn't have a wonderful world if everyone just followed secular laws, which was your initials point.

    Amusing when people completely forget what they were arguing for...



    No, religion shapes morals. Laws have almost nothing to do with morals. What's so hard to understand?



    The 'very ups' of one of the strands of Christianity in a few countries - stop making Christianity and The Catholic Church (which has its flaws; one of the reasons why I am Lutheran) like a collective gang of perverts. These people are criminals, they're being prosecuted, and they'll have to face God one day. Again, this doesn't diminish the value of Christianity's teachings on morals and ethics in the world.
    They are literally ten sentences forbidding you to do this or that. That is shaping morals?

    Yes, they have something to do with morals. Just because you cannot see that, doesn't mean it is not true.

    Christianity's teachings in the world? You mean forcing people to convert, starting wars in the name of Christianity? Yea, real quality organisation.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    They are literally ten sentences forbidding you to do this or that. That is shaping morals?
    They are guidelines (nothing is being forbidden to people - it's 'thou shalt', not 'you must not' or 'it is forbidden' or 'God will kill you with lightning if') teaching people right from wrong, things that you don't find in 'the law'.

    (Original post by yudothis)
    Yes, they have something to do with morals. Just because you cannot see that, doesn't mean it is not true.
    Apart from being partly based on Christian morals (again, thereby legitimizing and validating them - you, YOU, Mr. Atheist, are following Christian morals very day, isn't that wonderful?), no, they have nothing to do with them. Just because you cannot see that, doesn't mean it is not true.

    (Original post by yudothis)
    Christianity's teachings in the world? You mean forcing people to convert, starting wars in the name of Christianity? Yea, real quality organisation.
    Billions in charity collected, development aid all over the world, shelter for the homeless, free education, healthcare, even scientific advances - let alone every good thing anyone ever did out of religious motivation.

    Your one-sided negativity just reeks of ignorance and blind hate. I am done here, you're not even a worthy adversary.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    They are guidelines (nothing is being forbidden to people - it's 'thou shalt', not 'you must not' or 'it is forbidden' or 'God will kill you with lightning if' teaching people right from wrong, things that you don't find in 'the law'.



    Apart from being partly based on Christian morals (again, thereby legitimizing and validating them - you, YOU, Mr. Atheist, are following Christian morals very day, isn't that wonderful?), no, they have nothing to do with them. Just because you cannot see that, doesn't mean it is not true.



    Billions in charity collected, development aid all over the world, shelter for the homeless, free education, healthcare, even scientific advances - let alone every good thing anyone ever did out of religious motivation.

    Your one-sided negativity just reeks of ignorance and blind hate. I am done here, you're not even a worthy adversary.
    Well God is quite clear elsewhere in the Bible on punishment for those that don't follow his wishes.

    So you are one of those people that claims a monopoly on morals.

    And billions taken into their own pockets. Oh hey guys, you know that eternal hell we have been frightening you with, well if you give us your gold, you won't end up there.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    I know enough about you and your intellect and intelligence from this thread to make that prediction.



    Let's start with "many" people in "low points of their lives" have "turned to their faith" and ended up carrying out acts of violence and terror.

    Just how many inaccuracies and poorly defined terms are in there? And how does their number compare to people -at low points or not- who committed acts of violence and terror without any involvement of faith? How many of the shootings in the USA (apart from the war in Syria surely the biggest source of loss of lifes through violence right now) are religiously motivated? And how many acts of violence and terror have been prevented by faith?



    Nah, I am sure you refer to any religion as 'magic and fairy tales', so that makes it 6bn vs 1bn.

    Btw, your maths doesn't add up.



    "Since reason would be impossible without laws of logic, which stem from the Christian faith, we have a very good reason for our faith: without our faith we could not reason. Even unbelievers (inconsistently) rely upon Christian principles, such as logic, whenever they reason about anything. So the Christian has a good reason for his or her faith. In fact, the Christian faith system makes reason possible."

    - Dr. Jason Lisle (PhD in Astrophysics) (https://answersingenesis.org/apologe...ith-vs-reason/)



    Not if you read it as intended, and as any thinking individual would who doesn't desperately try to make a non-existent point would
    Your personal attacks have shifted from you achieving more than me to my intellect (or lack of it), quite distasteful really, anyway we've derailed the thread and this could go on forever so let's move this to PMs
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    The thing about going to Heaven is that it's your soul, not your physical body. Plus, you can only say how you'd feel now, down on Earth. I'm pretty sure it would be different I Heaven. One analogy used it that of the seed - it has to fall into the earth and "die", before sprouting up into a plant. Is the plant similar to the seed? Not really. But it came from the seed. You get the idea...
    I get the idea, but what's the point of going to heaven if you're not conscious? If you can't feel? If you merely... exist. Seems pretty pointless to me.

    Of course, you could go as far to say (and I'm pretty sure that this is what you were alluding to) that you effectively transcend the concept of "being" during the transition between death and the afterlife. But if that were the case, that'd put you on par with god as far as transcendence is concerned (which would be akin to heresy, surely? Granted, it doesn't exactly make you god, but it sure does ruin the whole "mysticism" thing regarding god appearing to people in various ways. I mean, for all you know, it could be Jack from down the street post-death just as likely as it would be god if both are subject to transcendental properties).

    The seed doesn't really die anyway, it just changes form, similar to how a zygote eventually becomes a fully grown human. There's no death involved. which ruins the analogy somewhat.
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    not at all - in fact I'm glad I'm only going to die instead of having to hang out in some fantasy reality for all eternity with either some absolute **** (god) or satan (probably a bit of a **** at least)
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    This is gonna sound weird by when i fall alseep i dont dream or remember my dreams at all. I do dream here and there, maybe once or twice a month, which i enjoy every much, since dreams are cool. ( i also really enjoy nightmares, theyre just freaky dreams to me, rather than anything scary, so i guess you can say ive never had a nightmare) . When i sleep i close my eyes and 5 mins later i open them, since i might be too hot, i can feel the sun or light going through my eye lids, and when i open them its the next day. Its been that way since i was young, i like to claim i dont remember what i dream about, but if im being honest i just dont dream very often at all.

    Anyways, the point of the above is, i can understand and accept that when die ill just go into a black void of nothingness, i won't be anything. It'll be like the black void i go into when i sleep ... you are nothing no one, nothing matters and nothing exists.Thats how i like to think of death, when i die, ill go into nothingness and i'm honestly happy about that. The fake reality that is heaven doesn't appeal to me in anyways.

    I have nothing against dying at 70 and becoming nothing really. i would 100% enjoy that to heaven, where i have to live longer for no reason, i guess my heaven if it exists would be going into a black void of nothingness.so yeah death doesnt worry me in anyways, the most peacful ive been is those hours when i sleep, where im nothing and dont exist.
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    “Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not.” - Epicurus
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    I get the idea, but what's the point of going to heaven if you're not conscious? If you can't feel? If you merely... exist. Seems pretty pointless to me.

    Of course, you could go as far to say (and I'm pretty sure that this is what you were alluding to) that you effectively transcend the concept of "being" during the transition between death and the afterlife. But if that were the case, that'd put you on par with god as far as transcendence is concerned (which would be akin to heresy, surely? Granted, it doesn't exactly make you god, but it sure does ruin the whole "mysticism" thing regarding god appearing to people in various ways. I mean, for all you know, it could be Jack from down the street post-death just as likely as it would be god if both are subject to transcendental properties).

    The seed doesn't really die anyway, it just changes form, similar to how a zygote eventually becomes a fully grown human. There's no death involved. which ruins the analogy somewhat.
    That's a good point, and I think it actually says somewhere that when you go to Heaven, you will be like "gods", but not actually THE God. There's a difference. Also, I don't think that humans who have gone to Heaven come back or anything; God, who is all over time and space, is very different in that; also in that, in a kingdom, the King is human, just like his subjects, but that doesn't mean they're all considered to be equal in the hierarchical sense.

    It's just a theory of mine, but I think that in Heaven you might have a kind of "super-consciousness", almost like what you might expect if you suddenly turned 4-dimensional (except this is outside dimensions). And you won't miss people in the sense that you were speaking of earlier - they'll come and join you, literally in no time at all (because, like I say, Heaven is eternal - outside time); then, there's the other brilliant thing, which is that you would get to meet so many amazing people from the past (and future), and that you would actually get to properly meet with God. I'm not sure that I can think of anything better than that.

    In the analogy with the seed, I know what you mean - it doesn't die, but just undergoes a transformation. I think that's what happens when you die - not to your physical body, but your soul. So the analogy is slightly better than the way I originally put it!
 
 
 
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