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    (Original post by A-LJLB)
    No
    Right. Just curious since you referred to 'what's best' for children and then went on to mention private schools; wondered if you were suggesting the two were related.

    (Original post by G.name)
    Don't patronise me, because you've seen a few mates get into 'top universities'. There's a reason why people from middle class backgrounds exist in greater proportions in skilled jobs than working class: Because there's differential education, e.g., amongst other hurdles levelled against working class folk. You know there's no significant genetic differences between people. Most of us have a tremendous cognitive capacity. But due to social circumstances, few working class people realise them. And the only reason you see it more numerous in better economic circumstances is because of better encouragement of those faculties.
    PRSOM - but this, multiple times over.

    My family was pretty poor throughout my teens; I went to a middling state comp and worked part-time from the age of 15, up to about 25 hours a week during sixth form. I got my fair share of A*s, went to Oxford for my first degree and am now working as medical doctor, so someone could easily use my case to argue that people from working class families who don't achieve academically are just not working hard enough, as it's clearly possible.

    But.. I was surrounded by a very loving family who understood the value of education (although no-one else in my family besides my sister is university-educated) and encouraged me to do well. I didn't grow up in an abusive household, and we were able to spend time together as a family. Besides mental health issues, there were no major disabilities or illnesses that any of my close family had to contend with. Although my family didn't have highly-paid jobs, almost all of them were able to find work and keep it. There were lots of things we didn't have, but we did at least have a lot of books. Unlike lots of people who are actually living below the breadline, I never had to go hungry and I always had clothes and shoes that fitted and were warm enough.

    Despite not being very well off, we weren't nearly as poor as a lot of the kids I see in work now.*

    This is something most people don't seem to realise when they assume working-class people are only poor due to 'laziness' - there are multiple factors at play, and to simply suggest that people need to work harder to dig themselves out of poverty is to ignore most of those things.
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    (Original post by Jizzy Jihad)
    The upper class is made up of more than just lords, also this attitude is the problem, middle class people are among the most snooty, have a completely disproportionate amount of power and are completely unelected. The worst thing about doctors, lawyers and engineers is that they think their expertise in one area give them authority on other areas over the quiet working class heroes who made this nation great.
    *Doesn't apply to everyone, of course. But generally, I agree.
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Right. Just curious since you referred to 'what's best' for children and then went on to mention private schools; wondered if you were suggesting the two were related.
    But I didn't say that did I? Not going to lie, getting pretty annoyed with everyone jumping to conclusions, and always the wrong one.

    Simply that mine would be going private.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    :cry2: *

    but we are lovely

    *
    So true, so true. :smug:

    It's the way we shop, dress and talk, don't you know.
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    (Original post by Nirvana1989-1994)
    I don't really see myself as middle-class, after all it's my parents success not mine, but that is true, it's a silly way to pigeonhole oneself.
    Not really, most people grow up kind of 'impregnated' with the values, culture and status of their parents/grandparents, neighbours, friends, etc, so it's not really possible to make a clean start on class just when you hit college or something like that. :sad:
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Right. Just curious since you referred to 'what's best' for children and then went on to mention private schools; wondered if you were suggesting the two were related.



    PRSOM - but this, multiple times over.

    My family was pretty poor throughout my teens; I went to a middling state comp and worked part-time from the age of 15, up to about 25 hours a week during sixth form. I got my fair share of A*s, went to Oxford for my first degree and am now working as medical doctor, so someone could easily use my case to argue that people from working class families who don't achieve academically are just not working hard enough, as it's clearly possible.

    But.. I was surrounded by a very loving family who understood the value of education (although no-one else in my family besides my sister is university-educated) and encouraged me to do well. I didn't grow up in an abusive household, and we were able to spend time together as a family. Besides mental health issues, there were no major disabilities or illnesses that any of my close family had to contend with. Although my family didn't have highly-paid jobs, almost all of them were able to find work and keep it. There were lots of things we didn't have, but we did at least have a lot of books. Unlike lots of people who are actually living below the breadline, I never had to go hungry and I always had clothes and shoes that fitted and were warm enough.

    Despite not being very well off, we weren't nearly as poor as a lot of the kids I see in work now.*

    This is something most people don't seem to realise when they assume working-class people are only poor due to 'laziness' - there are multiple factors at play, and to simply suggest that people need to work harder to dig themselves out of poverty is to ignore most of those things.

    Yes, I agree. And thanks for sharing your experiences. My circumstances sound similar, and I too hope to study Medicine; in fact I'm applying now. As you say, these causes are multifarious, and any attempt to generalise answers is narrow-minded.
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    (Original post by A-LJLB)
    But I didn't say that did I? Not going to lie, getting pretty annoyed with everyone jumping to conclusions, and always the wrong one.

    Simply that mine would be going private.
    Er, why are you so angry?

    I politely asked you a simple question, and explained the rationale behind it. Or are people not allowed to ask you to elaborate on statements you've made?
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    (Original post by G.name)
    Yes, I agree. And thanks for sharing your experiences. My circumstances sound similar, and I too hope to study Medicine; in fact I'm applying now. As you say, these causes are multifarious, and any attempt to generalise answers is narrow-minded.
    Good for you - good luck with it.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Not really, most people grow up kind of 'impregnated' with the values, culture and status of their parents/grandparents, neighbours, friends, etc, so it's not really possible to make a clean start on class just when you hit college or something like that. :sad:
    I meant that I don't really see myself as a 'snobby' middle-class person just because of my parents.
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Er, why are you so angry?

    I politely asked you a simple question, and explained the rationale behind it. Or are people not allowed to ask you to elaborate on statements you've made?
    Ok.
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Right. Just curious since you referred to 'what's best' for children and then went on to mention private schools; wondered if you were suggesting the two were related.



    PRSOM - but this, multiple times over.

    My family was pretty poor throughout my teens; I went to a middling state comp and worked part-time from the age of 15, up to about 25 hours a week during sixth form. I got my fair share of A*s, went to Oxford for my first degree and am now working as medical doctor, so someone could easily use my case to argue that people from working class families who don't achieve academically are just not working hard enough, as it's clearly possible.

    But.. I was surrounded by a very loving family who understood the value of education (although no-one else in my family besides my sister is university-educated) and encouraged me to do well. I didn't grow up in an abusive household, and we were able to spend time together as a family. Besides mental health issues, there were no major disabilities or illnesses that any of my close family had to contend with. Although my family didn't have highly-paid jobs, almost all of them were able to find work and keep it. There were lots of things we didn't have, but we did at least have a lot of books. Unlike lots of people who are actually living below the breadline, I never had to go hungry and I always had clothes and shoes that fitted and were warm enough.

    Despite not being very well off, we weren't nearly as poor as a lot of the kids I see in work now.*

    This is something most people don't seem to realise when they assume working-class people are only poor due to 'laziness' - there are multiple factors at play, and to simply suggest that people need to work harder to dig themselves out of poverty is to ignore most of those things.
    OK.
    That was very well put and I can't find enough arrogance in myself to disagree with it (and I have plenty).
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    (Original post by *pitseleh*)
    Good for you - good luck with it.
    Thank you, I may need that luck. Do you mind if I PM you? I'd like to get your thoughts on contracts and by extension, the state of the NHS.
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    (Original post by BIGJohnson777)
    Everybody has a good chance at receiving a decent level of education in this country. I went to a mediocre comprehensive and still ended up with A*s, and so did people from working class backgrounds I studied with, who did put some effort into their study to end up at top universities. And I am sure they won't have any difficulties in finding skilled jobs on graduation.

    Oh god. I shuddered.

    This is why they need to introduce psychology as a core subject, to reduce prejudice, and ignorance.

    Yes, everyone has access to education. Yes. But why do you seem to think that is all that is required for success? There are many, many barriers to educational, social and emotional achievment, all of which contribute to a "successful life". But I shall focus on the academic side of things.


    1. Because a minority of poor people rise from the ashes, and go to university, that does not mean that poor people do not experience social disadvantages. Some people are born resilient, strong, lucky genetics. Some people either or also, despite being poor, have good solid foundations set by decent parenting, stable and loving upbringing. Just because that proportion of the poor population are able to succeed, that in no way can be used against those who were not so fortunate or resilient.

    A very basic understanding of statistics would tell you that there will always be exceptions to the rule, there will always be anomalies in patterns, those who succeed despite facing hardship and disadvantage, are exceptions. They should not be used to put down the rest of the population.

    2. There are many physical barriers that may prevent a person from a disadvantaged background from achieving their potential. For example, direct resources, reading materials, computers, toys. They are also less likely to be provided with an enriched environment in terms of family day outs, or play groups, recreational activities, holidays. All of these aid a persons social and educational development.

    3. Parenting. Parents from poor backgrounds are often less able to provide the same nurturing, discipline and support to their children. As your common sense should tell you, parenting is vital to a child's social and educational development.

    For example, parents in poverty often have less emotional resources to discipline and nurture their child, because they are more likely to experience stress, more likely to work unsociable hours, more likely to have substance abuse and other mental health problems.

    Ineffective parenting in the early years effects the child's ability to understand emotions, and this can lead to the child not responding effectively to discipline. This small thing sets the child immediately apart from their peers when they enter school.

    4. Cramped conditions. Research shows that living in cramped conditions leads to poorer educational outcomes than the a matched population. Understandably, cramped conditions are a lot more distracting, acting as a barrier from children to achieve their academic potential in the home environment.

    Guess what, I can continue. I can go on, and on, and on. Children from deprived backgrounds experience barriers to achieving their potential that you in your sheltered life can quite clearly not even comprehend. I can provide multiple research studies for every point I have made, and I can add more and more barriers to that list.

    Stop being ignorant, don't feel proud of yourself for going to a mediocre school and achieving A*s, you aren't special for that.
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    (Original post by looloo2134)
    Reason Why
    1) their amoral e.g smoking weed at university
    2)They believe their children are more intelligent than working class children
    3)They buy houses by the best performing schools so their children will get a place
    4)They look down on people who live in social housing
    5)they call working class white people racist & xenophobic. When the white work class work in low skilled jobs with Eastern Europeans. Also are more likely to have mixed race children.
    Yes, since humans have prejudices.
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    (Original post by G.name)
    *Doesn't apply to everyone, of course. But generally, I agree.
    Obviously, in some sense of the word I probably am middle class, even if I'm a cultural heretic who is wearing trackies and hasn't shaven for two days.
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    I've known many lower-class people who smoke weed. i don't see how that makes somebody "amoral".

    and work with Eastern Europeans....i don't see how that precludes racism.
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    (Original post by Jizzy Jihad)
    Obviously, in some sense of the word I probably am middle class, even if I'm a cultural heretic who is wearing trackies and hasn't shaved for two days.
    Heretic, lol. How so?
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    (Original post by G.name)
    Heretic, lol. How so?
    I think lifting is better than Zumba and I think N-Dubz is better than Muse
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    I am not sure why but a lot working class children from white families don't seem to try in school whereas in pretty much every other culture working class children are taught to be studious. Just my anecdotes from what i've seen
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    (Original post by looloo2134)
    3)They buy houses by the best performing schools so their children will get a place
    I dont think you can dislike parents for doing this, my parents did this e.g. buying a house in an area with high performing schools and hiring tutors, but this is only to get the best education possible which is key for doing "well" in life. I dont look down on the working class purely because of their class.
 
 
 
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