Centrists: Why not the Lib Dems?

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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Orange Bookers have a fairly equal balance between Social and Economic liberalism, whilst Osbourne and more so Cameron prioritise Economic Liberalism above Social Liberalism
    Can you give me a specific example to illustrate your point?
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    amazing how many people in the protest movements have seen the replacement legislation when it isn't even written ...

    but never let facts get i nthe way of a baseless anti Conservative Party slur
    If you're talking about the Human Rights Act bit, literally just check the Tory manifesto mate. They wanted a British Bill of Rights. It's currently too unpopular for them to do it though, so they'll drop it.

    And in any case, the Lib Dems are hardly part of the protest movement anymore. That's Labour now, which is exactly why they aren't fit to be Official Opposition
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    If you're talking about the Human Rights Act bit, literally just check the Tory manifesto mate. They wanted a British Bill of Rights. It's currently too unpopular for them to do it though, so they'll drop it.
    amazing how many people have prejudged the 'british bill of rights' despite there beign no green paper , so at the minute it;s all scare stories and hiding who the real Nasty Party are ...
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Orange Bookers have a fairly equal balance between Social and Economic liberalism, whilst Osbourne and more so Cameron prioritise Economic Liberalism above Social Liberalism
    Funniest thing I've heard for a while

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    I would imagine if people vote at all many don't support the LDs due to tactical voting under our FPTP system. i.e. Voting for Labour or the Tories because you don't want the other one. Been that way for decades.

    Tribal loyalty passed down through the generations will be a factor in thought too I suspect.

    As will a general apathy to politics and politicians.
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    amazing how many people have prejudged the 'british bill of rights' despite there beign no green paper , so at the minute it;s all scare stories and hiding who the real Nasty Party are ...
    The funniest thing is it could even be as simple as a copy and paste of what we have, except with British courts rather than the rather ugly ones in Strasbourg, really it needs getting over and done with sooner rather than later so any hit in the polls has plenty of time for Corbyn to reverse

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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    amazing how many people have prejudged the 'british bill of rights' despite there beign no green paper , so at the minute it;s all scare stories and hiding who the real Nasty Party are ...
    Oh, I don't deny a British Bill of Rights *could* be good. But I'm really not trusting the Government imposing the Snooper's Charter on us with our civil liberties. The system as it is currently works. I thought it was conservatives that would say "if it ain't broke don't fix it"


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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Oh, I don't deny a British Bill of Rights *could* be good. But I'm really not trusting the Government imposing the Snooper's Charter on us with our civil liberties. The system as it is currently works. I thought it was conservatives that would say "if it ain't broke don't fix it"


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    Saying it ain't broke assumes supremacy of a foreign entity over domestic comes under ain't broke, people aren't exactly fond of that sort of thing right now. hoe popular would it be if literally all it did was change the European Court for a domestic court?

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The funniest thing is it could even be as simple as a copy and paste of what we have, except with British courts rather than the rather ugly ones in Strasbourg, really it needs getting over and done with sooner rather than later so any hit in the polls has plenty of time for Corbyn to reverse

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    The British bill of rights is a total farce. How many times has the government u-turned on it now? Even the Spectator derided it in a recent article.

    It is a jingoistic tub-thump of a policy for people who think human rights are a lefty plot to bring terrorist preachers into the country. And it's legally incoherent to boot: you do realise Blair did exactly this in 1998 with the Human Rights Act. Took the Strasbourg rules and repatriated them into UK law.

    (So our human rights already have nothing to do with Strasbourg.)

    The most ridiculous thing is the Tories keep ordering civil servants to draw up papers and reports on the British bill of rights, and every time the poor sods run up against the problem that this has already been done years ago, turning it into a Kafkaesque exercise. The Tories may be able to rewrite history in the media, but they can't do it with the law.

    So what are the Tories missing with what Blair did? They would probably tighten up on family life, thus tearing asunder many immigrant families from all nations and of all classes, even the rich. They would certainly use the opportunity to write in rights to make profit, rights to collect rents, and take away workers' rights like right to strike in key industries.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The funniest thing is it could even be as simple as a copy and paste of what we have, except with British courts rather than the rather ugly ones in Strasbourg, really it needs getting over and done with sooner rather than later so any hit in the polls has plenty of time for Corbyn to reverse

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    The vast, vast majority of cases are finished in the British courts.
    Only exceptional cases go up to Strausbourg and of them something like 92% of the the time Strauabourg sides with the British government.*
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I mean, it's not like Labour pledged to look into electoral reform in 2001 when they actually had a majority Government to implement it, is it? Oh wait....whoops.

    The Tories wouldn't have supported it, and if we hadn't have gone into coalition the economy would be a lot worse off than it is today.



    It was for country, rather than for party. It was patriotic in that sense. If the economy wasn't at risk, the Lib Dems would have either got a better deal or not gone into Government.

    Labour borrowed huge swathes of money that left us vulnerable. Admittedly, it's not Labour's fault the economy crashed in itself. But there are a lot of things Labour could and should have done differently at the time (for example, Gordon Brown selling off loads of Gold at ridiculously low prices).
    I'm sort of a Lib Dem, although I hate the Orange Book faction and its voodoo economics. Literally nobody believes Clegg went into coalition to save the country fron economic ruin rather than for power. There was absolutely zero danger of the economy collapsing, the Tory scaremongering about us becoming the next Greece was shockingly mendacious. The coalition managed the economy really badly compared to Labour, we recovered better to 2010 than under austerity from 2010 to 2013, we were the slowest to recover of all comparable countries and slower than any prevous downturn - and of course once recovery did happen it turned out mysteriously all the money had gone to the rich.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    The British bill of rights is a total farce. How many times has the government u-turned on it now? Even the Spectator derided it in a recent article.

    It is a jingoistic tub-thump of a policy for people who think human rights are a lefty plot to bring terrorist preachers into the country. And it's legally incoherent to boot: you do realise Blair did exactly this in 1998 with the Human Rights Act. Took the Strasbourg rules and repatriated them into UK law.

    (So our human rights already have nothing to do with Strasbourg.)

    So what are the Tories missing with what Blair did? They would probably tighten up on family life, thus tearing asunder many immigrant families from all nations and of all classes, even the rich. They would certainly use the opportunity to write in rights to make profit, rights to collect rents, and take away workers' rights like right to strike in key industries.
    You realise you have perfectly demonstrated the point that was being made a few points back? This whole "eurgh, the tories will take away all rights " drivel is, well, a load of drivel. I know right now the British left has forgotten how to win elections and instead are intent on losing them, but as unpopular as Labour is something tells me most would see that as preferable to the claims people make with regards to a British Bill of Rights.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You realise you have perfectly demonstrated the point that was being made a few points back? This whole "eurgh, the tories will take away all rights " drivel is, well, a load of drivel. I know right now the British left has forgotten how to win elections and instead are intent on losing them, but as unpopular as Labour is something tells me most would see that as preferable to the claims people make with regards to a British Bill of Rights.

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    You seem to be implying British human rights law takes place on Strausbourg.
    The human rights act of 1998 meant that British courts can rule on them.

    Our courts deal with the overwhelming majority of human rights cases. The idea that it's all done in Strausbourg is completely false.*
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    (Original post by viffer)
    I would imagine if people vote at all many don't support the LDs due to tactical voting under our FPTP system. i.e. Voting for Labour or the Tories because you don't want the other one. Been that way for decades.

    Tribal loyalty passed down through the generations will be a factor in thought too I suspect.

    As will a general apathy to politics and politicians.
    for the past 10 years I can accept - and have even done this myself - however I don't think this flies anymore for centrists. Both partys are now so far from anything palatable I could not vote for one of them to keep the other out. (the exception might be to keep Trump type out)
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You realise you have perfectly demonstrated the point that was being made a few points back? This whole "eurgh, the tories will take away all rights " drivel is, well, a load of drivel. I know right now the British left has forgotten how to win elections and instead are intent on losing them, but as unpopular as Labour is something tells me most would see that as preferable to the claims people make with regards to a British Bill of Rights.

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    If the Tories don't want to change any of the rights then it is a completely pointless exercise, since the ECHR is already delivered by the British courts and not by Strasbourg.

    One therefore has to assume that the Tories' zeal for this is because they want to change something about it.

    Now, if the Tories hadn't spent their entire 6 years obsessively trying to reduce workers' rights, access to employment law, right to strike, making benefit claimants pretend to be gainfully self-employed, one might be a bit less inclined to believe the worst of them.

    But despite your party's control of the media, this stuff does get through to some of us: and we judge the Tories appropriately.
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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    for the past 10 years I can accept - and have even done this myself - however I don't think this flies anymore for centrists. Both partys are now so far from anything palatable I could not vote for one of them to keep the other out. (the exception might be to keep Trump type out)
    You don't think the Tories won the last election with votes that were anti-Labour/Miliband's Commandments
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    (Original post by viffer)
    You don't think the Tories won the last election with votes that were anti-Labour/Miliband's Commandments
    At the last election you could just about get away with voting X to stop Y I think it's changed a lot since then.

    Tories stopping freedom of movement, pro grammar/faith schools, Boris/Fox/Davis are all big turns to the right imo

    Theresa herself is probably not that bad but with such a slim majority she's going to have to do what the right of the party tell her. Look how much the tories have killed UKIP since the EUref.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    If the Tories don't want to change any of the rights then it is a completely pointless exercise, since the ECHR is already delivered by the British courts and not by Strasbourg.

    One therefore has to assume that the Tories' zeal for this is because they want to change something about it.

    Now, if the Tories hadn't spent their entire 6 years obsessively trying to reduce workers' rights, access to employment law, right to strike, making benefit claimants pretend to be gainfully self-employed, one might be a bit less inclined to believe the worst of them.

    But despite your party's control of the media, this stuff does get through to some of us: and we judge the Tories appropriately.
    And you continue to prove exactly what the problem is with the BBoR, idiots like you. So, we've just had 6 years of Tory government, admittedly 5 with the Liberals holding the government back, so which rights that are offered in the UK at a greater level than those given under other commitments have been completely cut down? This Tory government that wants to completely destroy our rights in the country that has championed rights for centuries, that wants to throw away government so badly that it won't touch these rights
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And you continue to prove exactly what the problem is with the BBoR, idiots like you. So, we've just had 6 years of Tory government, admittedly 5 with the Liberals holding the government back, so which rights that are offered in the UK at a greater level than those given under other commitments have been completely cut down? This Tory government that wants to completely destroy our rights in the country that has championed rights for centuries, that wants to throw away government so badly that it won't touch these rights
    As well as jumping to the alt right, you also seem to have lost the ability to form coherent sentences.

    I note you haven't responded to my point. You do realise that the human rights act, which you want to repeal, is the act which allows our courts and our judges to rule on such issues?

    Prior to the human rights act, our courts could not rule on claims brought under breach of the ECHR and all claims had to go to Strausbourg.

    The HRA did exactly what you seem to be asking for now, it allowed our courts to be the arbitrar of human rights legal issues, rather than everything going above their heads to Strausbourg.


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