STEM students should pay higher tuition fees

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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    Are you saying that STEM degrees should be free? I believe that HE is extremely important but it should never be free. Also universities and the job market would become overwhelmed and saturated with STEM students, which would mean that graduate and STEM unemployment would alarmingly increase....
    Personally (in my highly idealized fantasy world, I'm aware the practicalities probably wouldn't work) I think we should have a system where there is a lot more funding for courses which provide skills we need. Those should be in the form of bursaries which are only available to or more available to lower income students/state school students who are high achievers academically. They should basically provide significant funding for what we need, so for example, there should be some funding for psychology courses but only a small minority would receive it as we only need a small amount of those skills. We should be providing a lot more funding for STEM subjects as we need more skilled STEM workers. People who can afford uni anyway shouldn't get funding, epople who want to study media or some other useless crap shouldn't get funding and people who got like straight Cs at A level shouldn't get funding.
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    The reason STEM graduates can earn more is because there is a higher demand for them - they are core to so many industries, yet we don't have enough people studying these subjects for our needs. This pushed up the amount they can earn.

    If we lower the tuition fees for non-STEM subjects and keep STEM at the current rate, that will only encourage people from not studying STEM subjects, increasing the shortage of such graduates.

    Instead of solving/helping the situation, it would further increase the salary that STEM graduates could command, while also hitting our economy due to lack of suitably trained staff.

    If anything, we need to be aiming for a highly trained STEM workforce, especially in the area of technology, in order to boost our economy. That can be achieved by making it more enticing to study STEM subjects at university - we do that by lowering the fees for STEM subjects - not raising them.
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    Are you saying that STEM degrees should be free? I believe that HE is extremely important but it should never be free.
    It used to be pre 1998 in England. Still is for Scots. It's only the increasing numbers when it started becoming too expensive to fund publicly.

    Also universities and the job market would become overwhelmed and saturated with STEM students, which would mean that graduate and STEM unemployment would alarmingly increase....
    That would be a nice problem to have! At that point you could adjust fees to reduce supply.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    I am not going to be pulled into a conversation about race, we are talking about the value and rigor of degrees not the merits of the penal system or social inequalities.

    It is a fact that different degrees are easier or harder then others, that some degrees require more work then others, and some degrees have more economic utility then others.

    I don't want to get personal but I need to here to point out what people like you do.

    when I was 3 my mother was told I was delayed. In case you don't know what they meant is that I was retarded. When my mother heard the term delayed she naturally thought that just meant i was behind right now but I would catch up.she based decisions on that until she found out what it actually meant then got me the actual help I needed.

    before we get to the insults don't go there I am autistic I have been tested recently in (in January this year) and scored 144. now this is ironic because average IQ is 100 IQ<70 is considered retarded 100-70=30 144-100=44.
    just putting it out there before the insults fly.

    anyway I in fact got the help I needed and turned out fine. sure I struggle to get dates but I am functioning on a level that most people in society never will.

    they should have just used the dreaded R word instead of trying to be politically correct. now I can use the G word. YAY.

    your suggestion that people should not state actual facts because it hurts peoples feelings is asinine.

    people need to know the truth so that they can make better informed decisions.

    It does not do perspective students any favors to hide the truth from them in the name of political correctness as to avoid hurting feelings. The best practice is to be brutally honest with them and allow them to make a free informed decision with that information knowing the consequences.

    if at that point knowing that information someone chooses to pursue a theology degree then that is their decision and i respect that.

    Just don't expect me to lie to them and tell them they will earn the same as someone doing a maths engineering or law degree.
    No one is trying to pull you into a discussion about race, it was a comparison I used to help people understand my point, not something I wanted to discuss.
    At no point did I deny that some degrees are harder than others or require more work than others, I simply stated that the difference did not correspond perfectly with the STEM vs. non-STEM divide.
    “people like you”
    Don’t say “people like you” to me. You are accusing me of being someone that I am not, purely on the basis of your misinterpretation of what I wrote. You don’t know what kind of person I am at all, so don’t try to tell me what kind of person I am.
    I’m genuinely sorry to hear that you had some problems in your life. However, the point you’re trying to make by telling me about them is: people shouldn’t sugarcoat things to the extent that it is unclear what they actually mean. I completely agree with that, that is exactly why I posted here in the first place, because I am tired of people using the STEM category to make conclusions that are incorrect.
    “before we get to the insults don’t go there”
    At no point in this thread, or on this forum, have I insulted anyone or called anyone names. I think it’s unfair of you to act as if I was going to insult you. Once again, this stems (pun intended) from your making assumptions about me that are completely unmerited.
    “your suggestion that people should not state actual facts because it hurts peoples (sic) feelings”
    I’m sorry, I appear to have missed the part where I suggested that. Please remind me.
    “people need to know the truth so that they can make better informed decisions”
    This is exactly what I’m trying to do, telling people the truth, i.e. not all non-STEM subjects have few contact hours and/or low probable earnings.
    “Just don't expect me to lie to them and tell them they will earn the same as someone doing a maths engineering or law degree”
    The funny thing here is that law is not a STEM subject, and is in fact an excellent example of my point.
    I hope this answers the points you've raised, I would advise you to go back and look at what I actually wrote, not what you think "someone like me" would write.
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    (Original post by doodle_333)
    If anything it should be the other way around. Subsidise people doing degrees which will enable them to contribute to the country/economy (and also encourage people to take STEM) and if people want to study art or something then they have to pay for that.
    Basically, that is already what is happening. If you take into account that providing the average STEM course costs more than providing the average non-STEM course but students pay exactly the same amount for them, it comes down to the average STEM course being subsidized more than the average non-STEM course.
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    (Original post by hellomynameisr)
    Although I agree that not all degrees are equal, for example, a maths degree compared to a gender studies degree, the same price should still be charged for both.

    Individuals are personally deciding what they want to study so why should the fee be higher for someone wanting to study maths over gender studies?

    Also, if say, Oxbridge were to charge higher fees, they would lose a lot of potential applicants simply down to the fact that really bright students under financial strains will not apply. This is something they want to avoid by increasing the number of people from different backgrounds.
    I agree. Some people may not want to apply to stem subjects because of the increased price. Also, doing a stem subject doesn't guarantee a higher income for everybody. You can do a biology degree and become a high school science teacher, and do an english literature degree and become an english teacher, and i think the salaries are very similar
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    No one is trying to pull you into a discussion about race, it was a comparison I used to help people understand my point, not something I wanted to discuss.
    At no point did I deny that some degrees are harder than others or require more work than others, I simply stated that the difference did not correspond perfectly with the STEM vs. non-STEM divide.
    “people like you”
    Don’t say “people like you” to me. You are accusing me of being someone that I am not, purely on the basis of your misinterpretation of what I wrote. You don’t know what kind of person I am at all, so don’t try to tell me what kind of person I am.
    I’m genuinely sorry to hear that you had some problems in your life. However, the point you’re trying to make by telling me about them is: people shouldn’t sugarcoat things to the extent that it is unclear what they actually mean. I completely agree with that, that is exactly why I posted here in the first place, because I am tired of people using the STEM category to make conclusions that are incorrect.
    “before we get to the insults don’t go there”
    At no point in this thread, or on this forum, have I insulted anyone or called anyone names. I think it’s unfair of you to act as if I was going to insult you. Once again, this stems (pun intended) from your making assumptions about me that are completely unmerited.
    “your suggestion that people should not state actual facts because it hurts peoples (sic) feelings”
    I’m sorry, I appear to have missed the part where I suggested that. Please remind me.
    “people need to know the truth so that they can make better informed decisions”
    This is exactly what I’m trying to do, telling people the truth, i.e. not all non-STEM subjects have few contact hours and/or low probable earnings.
    “Just don't expect me to lie to them and tell them they will earn the same as someone doing a maths engineering or law degree”
    The funny thing here is that law is not a STEM subject, and is in fact an excellent example of my point.
    I hope this answers the points you've raised, I would advise you to go back and look at what I actually wrote, not what you think "someone like me" would write.
    I dont need sympathy for the problems I had earlier in life I am literally functioning on borderline Genius level. Its arrogant to say buts it factual and scientifically proven. (I was tested). I just want to see those that follow me condemned to a life of waste sacrificed on the alter of political correctness.

    I don't seem to understand why people can not realize that to most trends people will spot there will be exceptions. Most girls like dominant men, I am sure you can find girls that prefer submissive men I know a few.

    most students at Cambridge study more then most students at Sheffield Hallam. I am sure you could probably find me a few students at Sheffield Hallam who put in more hours then a few students at Cambridge.

    Cambridge graduates are normally highly sought after and earn a lot of money but I read an article about one that earns min wage working long shifts at amazon. students that go to weak universities wont normally do well sure you could find a graduate who makes 6 figures.

    When people talk about these trends and things they are talking about statistically, which relates to probability.

    buying a lottery ticket is stupid, some people will make milliions doing it though.

    Yes law is not a stem subject but makes a lot of money it is an exception to the rules. most non stem degrees pay poorly in comparison. Most non Russel group universities result in a lower graduate premium. Yet graduates from Bath and Surrey will earn more then many Russel group universities.

    stop been disingenious we know there are exceptions to the rules.

    Stem degrees and Prestige both have a higher probability of better graduate premiums. Doing a stem subject at a prestigious university will normally lead to good pay.

    doing a non stem subject at a polytechnic will usually lead to low graduate premiums.

    This is a statistical fact.

    your odds are better doing a tough degree.

    anyway this is a bit rushed I need to go now to watch a trump speech I am really hoping he can pull of a miracle, though unfortunately I know its probably all over.
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    (Original post by TheBBQ)
    ITT: Salty arts students who are upset about the money other people will be making
    Please, this guy makes all the arts students look bad

    (Original post by #ChaosKass)
    I would begin with a base of £20,000 a year, then universities would be able to adjust them based on supply and demand (this would require the higher education sector to be completely privatised, to allow universities to have complete control).

    I would not completely abolish them, but put severe restrictions on the quality and quantity of people who are accepted onto them, for example if you want to do psychology then you would need to have evidence of wanting a career in psychology, not just because you want "the university experience" and are picking the easy course.
    Why don't you take your views and shove them up somewhere the sun doesn't shine? You disgusting troll. Disgraceful you think university should be for the rich.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    Please, this guy makes all the arts students look bad



    Why don't you take your views and shove them up somewhere the sun doesn't shine? You disgusting troll. Disgraceful you think university should be for the rich.
    please don't do that look I disagree with quite a bit of what chaos says as its a bit right wing for me which says something because I am known to be strongly right wing.

    However one thing I like about this forum is we can debate with each other passionately disagree and not resort to insults. I know get aggressive at times but I have never resorted to abuse, please keep it civil disagree by all means that is healthy but don't go down to this level.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    I dont need sympathy for the problems I had earlier in life I am literally functioning on borderline Genius level. Its arrogant to say buts it factual and scientifically proven. (I was tested). I just want to see those that follow me condemned to a life of waste sacrificed on the alter of political correctness.

    I don't seem to understand why people can not realize that to most trends people will spot there will be exceptions. Most girls like dominant men, I am sure you can find girls that prefer submissive men I know a few.

    most students at Cambridge study more then most students at Sheffield Hallam. I am sure you could probably find me a few students at Sheffield Hallam who put in more hours then a few students at Cambridge.

    Cambridge graduates are normally highly sought after and earn a lot of money but I read an article about one that earns min wage working long shifts at amazon. students that go to weak universities wont normally do well sure you could find a graduate who makes 6 figures.

    When people talk about these trends and things they are talking about statistically, which relates to probability.

    buying a lottery ticket is stupid, some people will make milliions doing it though.

    Yes law is not a stem subject but makes a lot of money it is an exception to the rules. most non stem degrees pay poorly in comparison. Most non Russel group universities result in a lower graduate premium. Yet graduates from Bath and Surrey will earn more then many Russel group universities.

    stop been disingenious we know there are exceptions to the rules.

    Stem degrees and Prestige both have a higher probability of better graduate premiums. Doing a stem subject at a prestigious university will normally lead to good pay.

    doing a non stem subject at a polytechnic will usually lead to low graduate premiums.

    This is a statistical fact.

    your odds are better doing a tough degree.

    anyway this is a bit rushed I need to go now to watch a trump speech I am really hoping he can pull of a miracle, though unfortunately I know its probably all over.
    You may not need sympathy, but you're getting it anyway, because it's a compassionate human response when you tell someone about difficulties you suffered in the past.

    As for the whole part about there being exceptions, that is not a contradiction to what I've said. In fact the whole reason I posted in the first place is because I'm tired of people treating this subject as if there aren't any exceptions.

    I don't know why you're making this into a PC debate, because this is not a PC issue and I never acted as if it was.

    As for the Trump supporting part, I am going to take a cheap shot and say that I'm not surprised someone who keeps insisting how clever they are despite it not being evident at all from their ability to correctly interpret the point of what someone is saying or from their ability to correctly use English is a Trump supporter. Here's a tip: very few actual geniuses go around saying they are one, just like few actual multi-billionaires go around bragging about how much money they have.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    Please, this guy makes all the arts students look bad
    I know. It was pretty much just him complaining 😂
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Everyone is eligible for loans to cover costs. Noone can not afford the fees.

    This is unusual. Generally STEM students have lots more contact time: https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-contact-hours

    Out of interest, how do humanities students do practicals?
    That's just simply not true. I personally know people who are not recieving enough loan to cover their accommodation and living expenses as a result of parents income being assessed. Everyone might be eligible for loans (although there are circumstances when you aren't) but it's certainly not a case of everyone gets the money they need.

    And you'll have to forgive me if I take that article with a grain of salt since I didn't see any sources. I did a few searches for variations on STEM students and contact time and absolutely nothing came up. So it can't be that unusual if nobody is reporting on it. One article and some random stats from unistats (that I was unable to follow to the original) is really not representative.

    It's also worth noting just how contact hours is being described here. A Physics student that has to spend several hours in a lab to perform experiments is not the same as getting several hours worth of teaching. I personally spent a 2 hour session in a lab today to complete work with Linux, there was a lecturer in the room with us but I wouldn't consider it proper contact hours. If I chose to spend additional time in the lab that'd be my choice. But I can do Linux work at home. A physics student probably won't have the equipment they need to perform experiments. That article seems like an outlier rather than the norm.

    I was also quite interested in the complaints that come with it. If anything this article serves as an example that people who have too much contact time have more problems than everyone else. Having too much contact time is an issue since it leaves you less time to get on with other work. I can vouch on that, I personally get 12 hours of contact time, split into 6:6 hours for lectures and seminars (small group practical sessions). For each of my 5 units I'm expected to spend an additional 6 hours a week of my own time working on stuff. That equates to 30 hours of my own work plus 12 contact hours for 42 hours a week. If I choose to spend those 30 hours making use of university resources I can. If I want to go to a lab, or a library, or meet with a lecturer when they're free I can. You could argue that would be a way of getting more contact time. But equally they're resources that are available to everyone. If people don't choose to use things like the library or members of staff that are being paid to help them you can't really complain about a lack of contact time.

    I don't personally know anyone doing a humanity subject so I can't verify it but from what I understand the general structure of all subjects is to spend a set amount of hours in lectures (large scale, hundreds of people type of thing) and the same amount of time in smaller seminars (classes like you'd find at school or college). There may or may not be "practical sessions" involved in humanities but the contact time is still broken down into 6 hours of lecturers and 6 hours of seminars. I use the term practicals which don't exist in all subjects. The correct terminology is seminar.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    I did a few searches for variations on STEM students and contact time and absolutely nothing came up. So it can't be that unusual if nobody is reporting on it. One article and some random stats from unistats (that I was unable to follow to the original) is really not representative.
    Have fun:
    http://university.which.co.uk/contac...omparison-tool

    However, as noted in the tool, contact hours is only part of the equation. Independent study is extremely important too.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    You may not need sympathy, but you're getting it anyway, because it's a compassionate human response when you tell someone about difficulties you suffered in the past.

    As for the whole part about there being exceptions, that is not a contradiction to what I've said. In fact the whole reason I posted in the first place is because I'm tired of people treating this subject as if there aren't any exceptions.

    I don't know why you're making this into a PC debate, because this is not a PC issue and I never acted as if it was.

    As for the Trump supporting part, I am going to take a cheap shot and say that I'm not surprised someone who keeps insisting how clever they are despite it not being evident at all from their ability to correctly interpret the point of what someone is saying or from their ability to correctly use English is a Trump supporter. Here's a tip: very few actual geniuses go around saying they are one, just like few actual multi-billionaires go around bragging about how much money they have.
    then why should we hold back from telling people that certain degrees and universities are not good? why did you compare it to talking about black crime?

    anyway actually listen to trump i cant pay much attention at the moment because I am watching this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb2sAjxDQcQ

    hear what the media wont tell you.
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    (Original post by Luke7456)
    then why should we hold back from telling people that certain degrees and universities are not good? why did you compare it to talking about black crime?

    anyway actually listen to trump i cant pay much attention at the moment because I am watching this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb2sAjxDQcQ

    hear what the media wont tell you.
    We shouldn't, and I never said we should. All I've been saying all along is that we shouldn't use STEM vs. non-STEM as the classifier for what is or isn't a good degree to study. I compared it to the way in which people talk about black crime because at the time it seemed to me like an example that most people would understand in the context of offensively generalizing people or things, but I guess I should have picked an example that doesn't come with so many emotions for some people, because it distracted from my point.

    I'll watch that video and if I think it's worth it I'll respond to you in a private message, because this is not a thread about Donald Trump.
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    I believe that students studying STEM subjects at university should pay higher tuition fees than non-STEM students because, on average, STEM students go on to work in highly paid jobs so are more likely to pay back student loans. Students who want to study non-STEM subjects like Media Studies, Art, Music, History, etc. should still be allowed to study those subjects, because education is vital, and people are entitled to study whatever they want. But these subjects, on average, tend to lead to lower-paid employment and often even minimum-wage work. So students end up with ridiculous debt that they can't afford to pay back over their working lives.Tuition fees for STEM students should be £9,000 a year. For non-STEM students: about £3,000 a year. STEM students get better teaching facilities and debt that they can pay back in full when they start work. Non-STEM students are left with much less debt which they might also be able to pay back in full when they go into lower-paid work. Both sides win... 😃
    Except that STEM students give back to society more than other subjects.Our entire society is based on science and technology.So when people get a STEM degree they are contributing to society if they then go and work in that field.
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    (Original post by Tian1Sky)
    We shouldn't, and I never said we should. All I've been saying all along is that we shouldn't use STEM vs. non-STEM as the classifier for what is or isn't a good degree to study. I compared it to the way in which people talk about black crime because at the time it seemed to me like an example that most people would understand in the context of offensively generalizing people or things, but I guess I should have picked an example that doesn't come with so many emotions for some people, because it distracted from my point.

    I'll watch that video and if I think it's worth it I'll respond to you in a private message, because this is not a thread about Donald Trump.
    fair enough. briefly on the race thing I abhor racism, and would never condone writing of black people. However I do think we need to be able to speak freely about real issues to get to the heart of the matter. There is a strong correlation between crime and poverty. perhaps if we were able to fix the poverty issues this would be less of a problem. Not talking about it and shoving it under the carpet to spare feelings only makes the problem worse though not better.

    always talk openly about everything avoid abuse and insults but don't shy away from facts.
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    If anything, STEM subjects should be subsidised, since they're the most useful to our society and industry. Also, no adult is 'entitled' to a university education...you should be grateful that the current loan system is in place, and that you don't have to work for a few years to fund yourself.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Except that STEM students give back to society more than other subjects.Our entire society is based on science and technology.So when people get a STEM degree they are contributing to society if they then go and work in that field.
    26% of FTSE100 & FTSE250 CEOs have an arts degree. 28% have a science degree.

    Life is a balance between art and science.


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    It would be nice if universities actually gave you a break-down of what the £9000+ is spent on.
    Also seems fishy how at many institutions, the textbooks are not included in the price... Funny how some state school sixth forms on a tight budget manage to provide textbooks for all of their students, yet they are not receiving £9000 a year from everyone.
 
 
 
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