Why do the Bremoaners hate Britain so much?

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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    You can't even clean up your grammar in the sentence when you say you can clean up your grammar.

    Going from the past to present tense in the same sentence without a temporal qualifier?

    Embarrassing.

    Hence the semi-colon, indicating that they are independent clauses.
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    It's also worth remembering that the Leave campaign told outright lies (which were proven to be lies) and promises that they either couldn't keep or had no way of knowing if they could keep. They tactics of the Leave campaign would have been considered illegal during a general election campaign...
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    No, but you don't accuse the match officials of corruption and try and get the match replayed to achieve a different result.

    Edit: And when that doesn't work hope the stadium get burnt down with all the club's players and supporters still inside...
    Fair point, unless there's evidence of corruption.

    But seriously as much as I think it's a bad idea we just need to get on with it now and try to get the best deal possible. However if a govt gets elected in the future on a mandate of having a second referendum or rejoining that would be a legitimate reason to have one IMO.

    The losing side were always going to react badly as it's such a divisive issue.
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    (Original post by PJJ12345)
    I think the reason why "Bremoaners" make the opposing point about Brexit is typified by the lack of comprehension of basic economics and politics in your post. Firstly, it is important to remember that the UK hasn't actually left the EU; the current turmoil in the economy (pound being at 163 year low, investment halted, inflation rising, GDP growth slowing etc) is based on what the markets expect IF the UK leaves the single market. As the UK is still in the single market, the full impact of the decision to leave the EU has not been felt. Essentially, if you think the economy is doing well post-Brexit: you are wrong.

    This nicely leads to my second point, you need to read a book if you think a fall in currency is not a bad thing. A devaluation in the Pound means £1 is worth less compared to other foreign currencies. Therefore, everything we import (which is a lot) becomes a lot more expensive, hence inflation. This will affect everything from the weekly shop to trips abroad. Essentially, our national wealth just fell by 20%. This may, for a short period, boost our exports, but once exporters lose privileged access to the single market, their goods will become relatively more expensive - cancelling out any perceived benefit. Essentially, please do not read the Express or Daily Mirror for economic lessons; read a book or a professional journal.

    Thirdly, the fact that Marmite is made in this country is irrelevant. Many of its constituent ingredients, from the plastic jar to the gas which transport it to the supermarket, are imported, which now due to the fall in the pound is more expensive (see above).

    Lastly, the fact that people point this out, and continue to make the opposite case for Brexit is part of our democracy. One of the supposed reasons many Brexiteers voted the way they did. So labeling people Bremoaners or accusing them of "talking the country down", because they highlight the inconsistencies or outright lies from the Brexit camp, just highlights the fact that you do not have anything intelligible to say.
    Well conversely all the issues the UK is having economically at the minute are entirely based upon speculation about the position the UK will find itself post-brexit, which means you're unable to say one way or the other about what post-brexit britain will be like (though I think economically it probably will be worse off, at least in the short term).
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    It's also worth remembering that the Leave campaign told outright lies (which were proven to be lies) and promises that they either couldn't keep or had no way of knowing if they could keep. They tactics of the Leave campaign would have been considered illegal during a general election campaign...
    I'm by no means defending the tactics of the leave campaign, but I think it's naive to think that for MOST leave voters what the leave campaign actually said had much bearing on them voting the way they did. From the people I've spoken to who did vote leave (anecdotal I know) it seems that the remain campaign much more substantially convinced them to vote leave.
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    It's also worth remembering that the Leave campaign told outright lies (which were proven to be lies) and promises that they either couldn't keep or had no way of knowing if they could keep. They tactics of the Leave campaign would have been considered illegal during a general election campaign...
    Whereas ever truthful Remain (in the form of the Prime Minister no less) said that Brexit could lead to World War Three.

    I have my eye on you by the way Small Town. When I get a moment I am going to reply in detail to an earlier post of yours. Full of Bremoaner nonsense which needs to be given a good seeing to...
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    (Original post by limetang)
    I'm by no means defending the tactics of the leave campaign, but I think it's naive to think that for MOST leave voters what the leave campaign actually said had much bearing on them voting the way they did. From the people I've spoken to who did vote leave (anecdotal I know) it seems that the remain campaign much more substantially convinced them to vote leave.
    Spot on.

    So woeful were they, it often seemed like the Remain campaign was a secret front for Leave.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    The referendum losers mystify me, they really do. Many of them are my own friends and family, I read witterings in the press and BBC on a daily basis, and yet I still can't grasp the mindset.

    Many seem to actively want Brexit to fail, they are pulling for Britain post the referendum to collapse economically, diplomatically and financially. How stupid and self defeating is that? Do they care more about being proved right (in their own estimation) in a voting decision than the welfare of their country?

    Why do they hate Britain SO much?
    Yes they do want Brexit to fail as they fear it will destroy the UK.
    Brexit might actually do all those things they aren't pulling for anything, Britain is a very divided nation right now and in all honesty the issue is major Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, the Scottish were told that if they voted to stay in the UK it would mean they would be able to stay in the EU, We breached that promise one that could have changed the entire indyref.

    It isn't stupid to fight against something you feel is far worse for you and the rest of your people, the welfare of the UK as a political state is even more at risk now then it was before after all i voted leave as a British Citizen and i believed voting for leave was voting for Britain's freedom from political pressures from the EU however i regret that choice as the country i voted for may not even exist after two years, i am not English or Scottish or Welsh or Irish i'm British first and foremost and if my country falls apart due to the tribalism in England and Wales i hate them.
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    (Original post by DeathGuardElite)
    Brexit might actually do all those things they aren't pulling for anything, Britain is a very divided nation right now and in all honesty the issue is major Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, the Scottish were told that if they voted to stay in the UK it would mean they would be able to stay in the EU, We breached that promise one that could have changed the entire indyref.
    .
    The EU won't accept an independent Scotland into its dying little club because Spain would prevent it, terrified of the example that would give Catalonia.

    And outside the EU, an independent Scotland would be bankrupt. Check out the hole the falling oil price blew in the Scottish Government's own budget forecasts for independence during their referendum.

    It isn't pretty.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    The EU won't accept an independent Scotland into its dying little club because Spain would prevent it, terrified of the example that would give Catalonia.

    And outside the EU, an independent Scotland would be bankrupt. Check out the hole the falling oil price blew in the Scottish Government's own budget forecasts for independence during their referendum.

    It isn't pretty.
    So you ignore Northern Ireland?

    Spain and Catalonia have their own issue, if Scotland voted for it and the UK government allowed it then Spain wouldn't have an issue, if scotland however just upped and decided we declare total independance with no vote at all then Spain would take issue.

    Yes it would be but atleast it'd be free from the UK and be independant have control of its own borders etc etc, basically the same **** Brexit said.

    Neither is Brexit which royally ****ed over my plans, i do intend to leave the UK before Brexit is finalized I'd like to avoid the divisions it will bring.
    I have little hope in a country that doesn't even understand its own national government.
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    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    We are a sovereign state recognised by the UN. That is literally ALL having sovereignty means.
    There were "sovereign states" well before the UN was dreamed up, and there will be long after it has faded into history. Post Brexit we will return to being one.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    I like Britain. I like living in British. I'm happy being British.
    Bully for you. It would be nice if you showed it now and again rather than trashing the country.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    But I understand that we're not the super power we were when we had an Empire
    I think the whole world understands that.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    based on killing people
    Except it wasn't based on killing people but bringing peace. Far fewer people died violently during British rule than did in the period before or after the Raj, for example.

    We brought a peace to all our colonies until almost the very end, known as the Pax Britannica.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    destroying cultures
    Cultures were not destroyed on the whole but in fact remarkably preserved. Those cultural practices that were attacked (but not I think totally destroyed) such as Sati, deserved to be. You could argue that the aboriginal way of life was pretty much destroyed, but was that not inevitable? No (little more than) stone age civilisation ever survived contact with more technologically advanced European ones. Look at the Aztecs, Incas or Native Americans.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    and forcing people to be slaves.

    Not a great chapter in our history, nor morally defensible by the standards of today. BUT you judge history by the standards of its time, not ours. All successful empires were slave owners and/or traders until the nineteenth century.


    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    (And tbh anyone who's proud of that and wants to return to those 'great days' is a disgusting shitbag.)
    No-one can turn the clock back, and no-one is "proud" of slavery.

    BUT the British Empire was about much much more than the travesty of it that you present. If you want to see its positive legacy look all around you. We bequeathed successful, modern civilised countries like the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India. All with efficient and fair political systems, independent judiciaries, strong economies, a unifying language (ours)... They are the Empire's contribution to the world...

    Pretty nifty for a small rainy island with about one per cent of global population, huh?

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    We're no more special on a world stage than any other country of roughly the same GDP.
    Well we ARE special, (to some of us at least) because it is OUR country on the world stage, howsoever big or small in GDP terms. That is the bit that you seem not to be able to grasp.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    We're kind of insignificant really. And that's ok. We don't have to be a world power.
    You are basing all of the above on a false premise. Brexit is not about us becoming a world power (which we never will be again) it is about us becoming a free, sovereign nation. Which we will be soon.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    But we do need to accept that because we're not one no-one gonna rush to do any deals with us.
    We'll see. No-one would have been going to rush to do a deal with us if we had remained in the EU, that is for sure.

    Check out the recent Walloon veto on the EU/Canada "deal" that has been YEARS in the works.

    How are the EU's trade deals with India, the US, China going again? Will they even be signed before the EU collapses??

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    We can leave the EU. We're allowed to.
    That's nice of them.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    But the EU is perfectly allowed (and entirely reasonable) to turn around to us and tell us that we don't get to leave and then pick and choose what benefits we want to keep.
    They are allowed but it isn't reasonable. it is stupid. They will suffer damage to their own economies, as well as damaging ours and we all know how sickly the Eurozone is.

    I don't really see where you are coming from in saying that other countries are being reasonable in consciously and wilfully attempting to destroy your own. But then unlike you I don't hate my own country and want an economic calamity to befall it.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    The EU isn't being 'vindictive'.
    Yes it is. You obviously haven't been listening to your mate, Jean Claude Juncker after his second bottle of Burgundy for lunch.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    We are telling the EU we hate it. No person or organisation thinks it should do someone or something a favour after that. If you told your friend that you aren't actually friends anymore you won't get invites to their house parties afterwards. No matter how cool, or important you are.
    We are talking about global diplomacy here, not female secondary school social politics. Or at least we should be.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    And trust me, the people who voted Leave are following a fascist.
    I don't and they aren't.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    The vote lead to racism and bigotry.
    There is little evidence of this on a large scale but even if there were, so what?
    Brexit will eventually prove to be a very peaceful "war of independence" by comparison with others. Read up on the cruelties and blood spilt during the the American Revolution, or across the sea in Ireland for the matter of that.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    If you're looking for fascism, look at Farage.
    Fascism, is a form of totalitarian dictatorship. Farage was democratically elected to the European Parliament and then (successfully) campaigned for the UK to leave the EU via a democratic vote.

    In what way is that "fascist"?

    If we are looking for fascism I would say cast an eye on Remain who seek to overturn that democratic vote. Except I don't give my opponents meaningless (if libellous) labels, like "fascist." :rolleyes:

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)

    The EU doesn't make people fascists. Nationalism does.
    The EU is providing the fertile soil for fascism to grow. Huge unemployment in southern Europe because of the failed Euro project and the Greek debt crisis. More than a million (mostly Muslim men) migrating to the European mainland in a year. (Invited in by the moronic de facto leader of the EU, Merkel).

    If fascism does take hold in the EU (and I hope it doesn't but things don't look good) don't say we didn't warn you.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    The referendum losers mystify me, they really do. Many of them are my own friends and family, I read witterings in the press and BBC on a daily basis, and yet I still can't grasp the mindset.

    Many seem to actively want Brexit to fail, they are pulling for Britain post the referendum to collapse economically, diplomatically and financially. How stupid and self defeating is that? Do they care more about being proved right (in their own estimation) in a voting decision than the welfare of their country?

    Why do they hate Britain SO much?
    You are not Britain, Brexit is not Britain, Brexit is a reckless experiment that wiser people have told Brexiters will cost the country jobs and money and we are seeing that already.
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    (Original post by limetang)
    Well conversely all the issues the UK is having economically at the minute are entirely based upon speculation about the position the UK will find itself post-brexit, which means you're unable to say one way or the other about what post-brexit britain will be like (though I think economically it probably will be worse off, at least in the short term).
    Speculation is based on what the markets predict the post-Brexit deal will look like, i.e hard or soft Brexit. At the Conservative party conference a couple of weeks ago, Theresa May insinuated that the UK was heading for a hard-Brexit, that is, outside the single market and the pound tumbled accordingly. So although it is speculation, it is based on what they expect the outcome to be and economic environment for business.
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    (Original post by DeathGuardElite)
    So you ignore Northern Ireland?

    Spain and Catalonia have their own issue, if Scotland voted for it and the UK government allowed it then Spain wouldn't have an issue, if scotland however just upped and decided we declare total independance with no vote at all then Spain would take issue.

    Yes it would be but atleast it'd be free from the UK and be independant have control of its own borders etc etc, basically the same **** Brexit said.

    Neither is Brexit which royally ****ed over my plans, i do intend to leave the UK before Brexit is finalized I'd like to avoid the divisions it will bring.
    I have little hope in a country that doesn't even understand its own national government.
    Northern Ireland is a special case, unaffected by Brexit, surely?

    Loyalism and Republicanism are deep, visceral and long standing sectarian traditions with EU membership nothing but a sideshow. As long as there is a Protestant majority in Northern Ireland it will remain part of the UK, as soon as a Catholic one occurs it will leave the UK and join the rest of Ireland.

    It is that simple.

    You surely don't think that the Protestants who voted for the UK to stay in the EU will want to join Eire??

    The Republic of Ireland is unhappy we are leaving and are making a fuss about the border, but that will be resolved somehow. We don't take important decisions as a nation for Ireland's convenience , any more than they do for us.

    As for Scotland we will have to agree to differ.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Northern Ireland is a special case, unaffected by Brexit, surely?

    Loyalism and Republicanism are deep, visceral and long standing sectarian traditions with EU membership nothing but a sideshow. As long as there is a Protestant majority in Northern Ireland it will remain part of the UK, as soon as a Catholic one occurs it will leave the UK and join the rest of Ireland.

    It is that simple.

    You surely don't think that the Protestants who voted for the UK to stay in the EU will want to join Eire??

    The Republic of Ireland is unhappy we are leaving and are making a fuss about the border, but that will be resolved somehow. We don't take important decisions as a nation for Ireland's convenience , any more than they do for us.

    As for Scotland we will have to agree to differ.
    Northern Ireland voted Remain too just like Scotland.

    I simply wanted to keep the dicussion to simply brexit and the vote.

    I care little for pathetic issues of religion.
    In all honesty if the people in N.I demanded they stayed in the EU and it was a popular concept there as proven by the Brexit vote, it'd be foolish for them not to stand up for their values after all we live in free state.

    So is Northern Ireland which is who started the fuss in the first place, also remember i said NORTHERN IRELAND not the Republic of Ireland.

    In theory yes we'll have to agree to differ on that matter issue is i see hypocracy from your dogma, if Scotland voted to leave the UK they'd be able to use all the claims Brexit used same as any other little region that would want to be independant even if it completely ruins them.

    I personally do not feel Brexit will benefit our country and it wont help our poor, after all the London Elite only care about those closest to them and screw everyone else, some of the money we got back from the EU went to those regions that the London buggers care little about and declare desolate wastelands.

    Hell i view the current situation so toxic that returning and overruling the entire vote would be more useful so we can actually attempt to have a dialogue and keep our promises, like that Bremoaner crap I personally would love to live my life freely aslong as it doesn't harm others, however some people see fit to utterly **** over other people in the political sphere over foolish notions of nationalism and supposed self rule.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    It is not supposedly undemocratic, it is undemocratic.

    The concept of democracy originated in ancient Greece. The word "demos" meant (and means) the common people of an ancient Greek state, the populace of a democracy as a political unit. Demos, democracy.

    We can easily define what the demos of the UK is, that is why it is a democracy.

    Where is the European Union's demos?
    ...........the people who vote to elect MEPs?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    ...........the people who vote to elect MEPs?
    Yeah i dont understand when they say the EU is undemocratic? is it due to us having a fair amount of MEPs and they feel we deserve more?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    ...........the people who vote to elect MEPs?
    You see this gets to the nub of the whole debate. It might seem like an abstruse and arcane philosophical discussion about "demos" and democracy but it isn't. It has real life consequences, for millions of people.

    Under the political theory of the EU, which you are regurgitating, the demos of the EU is all the people of the EU. These people elect MEP's as you say. The Commission (unelected by the way) is the Executive proposing policies and legislation. And national Parliaments enact these, after agreement from the Heads of Government.

    These Parliaments and Governments are elected by their own demos'. The people of each member state. Yet their democratic authority, their demos is overridden by this overarching "demos" which is not felt to have democratic legitimacy.

    I'll give you an example. The Greek debt crisis. The Greek people wanted their debt to be forgiven so they wouldn't have to face the kind and scale of public pending cuts and tax rises, and unemployment that makes our so called "austerity" laughable.

    The Germans in the shape of their Government, given democratic legitimacy by their own national demos, the German people, said we are not going to forgive those debts because that means tax rises for us. So screw you.

    Where is the overarching European demos in all this? It doesn't actually exist when push comes to shove. Everyone knows that the debts are unsustainable, will never be repaid and will have to be forgiven. They aren't.

    The same is true of the migrant crisis. If there was really felt to be a European demos, giving democratic legitimacy to executive decisions the migrants would be shared out in an equitable way. Instead the migrants are holed up in camps in Greece and Italy. The Hungarian "demos" under Orban says, we don't want all those Muslim migrants in our country thank you very much. Screw you.

    But when migrants come to the UK they are moved on from Kent and shared out across the country. We have a democracy a demos, it is felt to be fair. Or at least accepted.

    Likewise if a UK local authority ever went bankrupt it wouldn't be told "screw you." It would be bailed out and the debts forgiven.

    That is why I say there is no European demos. And never will be.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    The referendum losers mystify me, they really do. Many of them are my own friends and family, I read witterings in the press and BBC on a daily basis, and yet I still can't grasp the mindset.

    Many seem to actively want Brexit to fail, they are pulling for Britain post the referendum to collapse economically, diplomatically and financially. How stupid and self defeating is that? Do they care more about being proved right (in their own estimation) in a voting decision than the welfare of their country?

    Why do they hate Britain SO much?
    I have a European passport, so I couldn't even vote lol. But it get what you mean, people won't accept a little hardship or change even if it means everyone's better off.
    Kinda spooks me out that some people don't value sovereignty over not being perceived as (((racists)))Name:  1475918985210.jpg
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