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Is Malia Bouattia an anti-Semite watch

  • View Poll Results: Do you think Malia Bouattia is an anti Semite?
    Yes
    64.15%
    No
    35.85%

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    lol who cares ugh shes a semite anyway
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Movement is movement, ideology is ideology.
    Except something can quite easily both. For example, people can talk about the "socialist movement" or the "conservative movement" even though socialism and conservatism are both ideologies.

    The only ideology behind national movements is the concept of self determination.
    Nope. For a start, self-determination is now widely viewed as a vague and flimsy term anyway, something that became particularly apparent during the Yugoslav Wars. But since the work of people like Hobsbawm, Anderson and Gellner, nationalism has been recognised as having certain common features and ideas, such as a national mythologised history*, symbolism, etc.

    * When we talk in the context of nationalism about "national myths" or "mythologised history", we are, for the most part, not talking about entirely fictitious events. Sure, there are often some literally mythical stories, but more often it refers to narratives about real historical events with parts omitted, altered, exaggerated, romanticised, etc
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The question wasn't "Was her statement on B'ham university anti-semitic" (I don't think it really was). It was "Is she an anti-semite", and I think she is. That is simply my opinion based on what I have seen and heard and I will be happy to change my opinion if presented with convincing evidence to the contrary.

    The issue with Murray is that you seem to be basing your accusation of anti-Muslim bigotry on taking a statement out of context. I admit that when lifted from the speech and presented as a sound-bite, it seems a bit dodgy but in context, it clearly does not say what his opponents would claim (I also admit that he holds some right-wing views that I disagree with). Again, I am more than happy to change my position if presented with convincing evidence that he is a bigot. Has he unequivocally stated that "all Muslims are terrorists" for instance, or they they should all be "sent back", or that all Muslims refuse to integrate etc? Simply saying that there is a worrying incidence of terrorism, or that those fulfilling certain reasonable criteria (eg. foreign nationals guilty of an offence) should be deported, of that there is a problem with some sections of the Muslim community failing to integrate, is not sufficient to brand someone as a bigot - because they are all factual or reasonable.

    Any statement on the acceptability of Islamic ideology or those individuals who actively promote it have nothing to do with bigotry.
    He was referring to Muslims who are British nationals and have parents or grandparents from overseas as well and didn't specify what he meant by "advocating violence towards British troops" so where does the line get drawn? If a Muslim opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and had grandparents from Pakistan (for an example), that person is to be treated differently from a non-Muslim with the same views, apparently.

    But for the sake of it, let's take the statements made by Bouattia which cause some of us to accuse her of Antisemitism and switch the words around, along with statements made by Murray and his cronies which have caused some of us to accuse them of anti-Muslim bigotry.

    Imagine that she had said (can't find the exact quote that Birmingham University was something of an "Islamist outpost" with the "largest ISOC in the country". And then she had said:
    "With mainstream Islamist-led media outlets - because once again we're dealing with the population of the global south - resistance is presented as an act of terrorism."
    Now, imagine Murray and his allies have said (a few of multiple examples):
    Conditions for Jews in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition. We in Europe owe – after all – no special dues to Judaism. We owe them no religious holidays, special rights or privileges. From long before we were first attacked it should have been made plain that people who come into Europe are here under our rules and not theirs. There is not an inch of ground to give on this one. Where a synagogue has become a centre of hate it should be closed and pulled down. If that means that some Jews don’t have a synagogue to go to, then they’ll just have to realise that they aren’t owed one. Grievances become ever-more pronounced the more they are flattered and the more they are paid attention to. So don’t flatter them
    We should profile Jews, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be a Jew, and we should be honest about it.
    Be honest: which sounds worse? Had Bouattia said the former and she was now being accused of anti-Muslim bigotry, would you not defend her? And had Murray and his associates said the latter, would you not accuse them of Antisemitism? If you would in both cases, can you genuinely say that you apply the same standards to prejudice against Muslims as prejudice against other groups?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    On what do you base this assertion? She has certainly displayed behaviour that contained elements that could be construed as antisemitic, and she follows a religion that contains explicitly antisemitic texts, and subscribes to a political movement that has been linked with antisemitism. I happily admit that it is all circumstantial to a greater or lesser degree, but it's all we have.
    Remember that I'm not saying that she is, just that I think she is but I am prepared to change my opinion if contradictory evidence is presented.
    You are categorically stating that she is not. So, what is the evidence that supports your assertion? If it is reasonable, I will happily change my position.
    Saying that someone being Muslim is proof of anti Semitism is ridiculous. You could equally say anyone who is Jewish or Christian is likely homophobic.
    That is clearly not the case.

    As for what my proof is?
    Well the onus is on you my friend. Innocent until proven guilty. If you are making an assertion that a person is racist, homophobic or anti semitic, then you have to prove it. Just as you would if you made an assertion that someone was a murderer.

    You are accusing someone of something very serious, you need to be
    able on back that up.

    Besides how on earth can you prove someone isn't anti Semitic or racist? You cannot. The burden rests on those claiming she is.

    The starting point is that a person is no bigoted until prove no otherwise, not that they are until their innocence is proven.

    So what's your proof that she should anti Semitic? That's quite a serious accusation to make.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Saying that someone being Muslim is proof of anti Semitism is ridiculous. .
    Agreed. Which is why I didn't say it. I merely said that she follows a religion that contains explicitly antisemitic texts. Please address what I said, not what you want me to have said.

    As for what my proof is?
    Well the onus is on you my friend. Innocent until proven guilty. If you are making an assertion that a person is racist, homophobic or anti semitic, then you have to prove it. Just as you would if you made an assertion that someone was a murderer.
    I think you misunderstand the concept of the burden of proof.
    I merely stated an opinion that I clearly admitted was based on circumstantial evidence (which I presented) and may be wrong.
    You made an explicit and unequivocal assertion. Therefore, therefore the onus is also on you to support your position.
    You didn't say "I don't accept your argument, please support it", you said "An antisemite she is not".

    You are accusing someone of something very serious, you need to be
    able on back that up.
    I did, kinda.
    Now you need to back up your assertion.

    Besides how on earth can you prove someone isn't anti Semitic or racist? You cannot. The burden rests on those claiming she is.
    Ah, so you agree that your position of "An antisemite she is not" is unsupportable, and you should have said, "I don't know whether she is or not, but I don't want her to be".
    My position is "I don't care whather she is or not, but the available evidence suggest that it is a possibility".
    At this point I should admit that my OP was a little flippant. It know that I should have said, "I think she is" or "She gives that appearance", or something. And for that, I apologise. It was not good enough. I've let her down, I've let you down, but most of all I've let myself down.

    The starting point is that a person is no bigoted until prove no otherwise, not that they are until their innocence is proven.
    Are you sure. We are not talking about an accusation of committing a criminal offence. We are talking about an opinion or position on a subjective issue. The default position should be neutral. When you first meet someone, do you make other assumptions about their likes and dislikes, or do you reserve judgement until they give you some indication?

    In this case, we should indeed reserve judgement on her position on Jews until she makes come statements or comments that give some indication as to her position. She has done that, and my opinion moved from one of "not knowing" to one of "having some idea".
    Now, if you consider that the statements she made about the issue has left you none the wiser about her position, then that's entirely up to you.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Agreed. Which is why I didn't say it. I merely said that she follows a religion that contains explicitly antisemitic texts. Please address what I said, not what you want me to have said.

    I think you misunderstand the concept of the burden of proof.
    I merely stated an opinion that I clearly admitted was based on circumstantial evidence (which I presented) and may be wrong.
    You made an explicit and unequivocal assertion. Therefore, therefore the onus is also on you to support your position.
    You didn't say "I don't accept your argument, please support it", you said "An antisemite she is not".

    I did, kinda.
    Now you need to back up your assertion.

    Ah, so you agree that your position of "An antisemite she is not" is unsupportable, and you should have said, "I don't know whether she is or not, but I don't want her to be".
    My position is "I don't care whather she is or not, but the available evidence suggest that it is a possibility".
    At this point I should admit that my OP was a little flippant. It know that I should have said, "I think she is" or "She gives that appearance", or something. And for that, I apologise. It was not good enough. I've let her down, I've let you down, but most of all I've let myself down.

    Are you sure. We are not talking about an accusation of committing a criminal offence. We are talking about an opinion or position on a subjective issue. The default position should be neutral. When you first meet someone, do you make other assumptions about their likes and dislikes, or do you reserve judgement until they give you some indication?

    In this case, we should indeed reserve judgement on her position on Jews until she makes come statements or comments that give some indication as to her position. She has done that, and my opinion moved from one of "not knowing" to one of "having some idea".
    Now, if you consider that the statements she made about the issue has left you none the wiser about her position, then that's entirely up to you.
    No.

    I assume that every person is not an anti Semite, a bigot or a racist until proven otherwise. We all deserve that.

    They are all serious, defamatory accusations which can badly damage a personal reputation and they should not be made lightly.

    The burden of proof is therefore on those making such defamatory statements.

    My evidence that he has has not said no or done anything anti Semitic and therefore we assume she is not.
    Your 'evidence' is that she is Muslim
    ANd left wing so therefore probably anti Semitic. That's shockingly poor logic and opportunistic at best.


    Again, accusinng someone of Anti Semitism is a serious accusation for which you can be sued in court for if untrue. You
    Therefore must be able to back such a claim up without solid evidence.

    Your case is incredibly flimsy at best.
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    I wish the world were full of anti-Semites the world would be a much better place.

    Jewish people had their chance to change their ways. The truth is they haven't change a bit since biblical times.


    Why don't people ever question what the Jews did to the Germans?

    Such hatred people had for the Germans, they were blinded by it.

    The Jews what they did with their international network of power turned us against eachother. Nazi's actually supported a Jewish state in the beginning in Palestine, as a solution to the Jewish problem. LOL
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    Zionism stinks
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    They are all serious, defamatory accusations which can badly damage a personal reputation and they should not be made lightly.
    How about feelings of Jewish students regarding her statements? Should they enjoy her statement about “mainstream Zionist-led media outlets”? Or her actual support of armed resistance against Israelis?
    My evidence that he has has not said no or done anything anti Semitic and therefore we assume she is not.
    Your 'evidence' is that she is Muslim
    ANd left wing so therefore probably anti Semitic.
    Don't confuse your opinion with evidence.
    The fact is that Muslims and the left today are the main reason of rise of anti-semitism in Britain. That's why Malia Bouattia should shut up with her hateful rhetoric.
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    (Original post by User1213)
    Zionism stinks
    Your cynicism stinks.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    How about feelings of Jewish students regarding her statements? Should they enjoy her statement about “mainstream Zionist-led media outlets”? Or her actual support of armed resistance against Israelis?

    Don't confuse your opinion with evidence.
    The fact is that Muslims and the left today are the main reason of rise of anti-semitism in Britain. That's why Malia Bouattia should shut up with her hateful rhetoric.
    She criticised Zionism, not Jews.

    Zionism is a political ideology and criticising it is not anti Semitic in the same way that criticising Islam does not make one a racist.

    You don't have a right not to be offended. Stop calling people who disagree with you anti Semitic. It's as bad as those on the left that call everyone racist for holding a different opinion.

    If you disagree with her then debate her and offer substantively arguments. Don't imitate the SJW by throwing accusations of anti Semitism and going 'I'm offended'.


    Nothing she has said has been anti Semitic.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    She criticised Zionism, not Jews.

    Zionism is a political ideology
    I've already said it several times that Zionism is a national Jewish movement. Is it so difficult to open a dictionary instead of repeating again and again your nonsense?
    Oxford dictionary:
    Zionism
    A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel
    criticising it is not anti Semitic in the same way that criticising Islam does not make one a racist.
    Criticizing Zionism means that Jews have no right to have their national state. If this is not anti-semitic, then what is?
    It is utter stupidity to equate Zionism and Islam.
    You don't have a right not to be offended.
    Show me an article in British law which permits offending people. :cool:
    Stop calling people who disagree with you anti Semitic.
    I didn't. But I consider some of her statements as anti-semitic.
    If you disagree with her then debate her and offer substantively arguments.
    Nothing she has said has been anti Semitic.
    You are not ready to accept any arguments which contradict your political agenda.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    I've already said it several times that Zionism is a national Jewish movement. Is it so difficult to open a dictionary instead of repeating again and again your nonsense?
    Oxford dictionary:
    Zionism
    A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel
    No Zionism is not a 'movement'; it's a political ideology. That's why you have Jewish anti Zionists and non Jewish Zionists. Please do not equate an ethnic religion with a political belief.

    Criticizing Zionism means that Jews have no right to have their national state. If this is not anti-semitic, then what is?
    Poor logic. Is anyone who voted against the Scots right to self determination racist then? Are they prejudiced against Scots?

    Is anyone that denies the Basque people's rights to self determination prejudiced and bigoted too?

    Is anyone who denies the Kosovans right to self determination islamaphobic and bigoted?

    Of course not. I want Israel, like I want all nations, to be a secular open democracy in which all people are granted equal rights and privileges, where no religion is placed above the other.

    Show me an article in British law which permits offending people. :cool:
    That's not how law works. Everything starts off legal until outlawed. Not the other way round.

    [/QUOTE]
    I didn't. But I consider some of her statements as anti-semitic.
    [/QUOTE]

    In other words you disagree with someone and therefore trying to shut them down and tar them by accusing them of being anti Semitic.

    You are not ready to accept any arguments which contradict your political agenda.
    No, I just want honest and open debate. I want people to debate and discuss and not accuse others of racism/Islamophobia/ anti Semitism just because they disagree with them.

    It's a lazy argument tactic. Stop shutting down debates and engage with people instead. Stop delegitimising th views of others by accusing them of bigotry.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Your cynicism stinks.
    Aren't you going to play the 'anti Semite' card?

    and no, I stick to my original statement since Zionism is a racist and oppressive ideology.
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    Yes and she should be punished without mercy like the morally bankrupt whore trash that she is.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Oxford dictionary:
    Zionism
    A movement..
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No Zionism is not a 'movement'; it's a political ideology.
    Can I from now on call you "Our Great Teacher"? :cool:
    Poor logic. Is anyone who voted against the Scots right to self determination racist then? Are they prejudiced against Scots?
    Nope. The question in the referendum was "Should Scotland be an independent country?". "should", not "can". Do you understand the difference, Our Great Teacher?
    Not to mention the fact that comparison of Scottish people, voted in their independence referendum, and Malia Bouattia, who attacks Zionism, is utterly stupid.
    That's not how law works. Everything starts off legal until outlawed. Not the other way round.
    You forgot common law, which defines general constitutional principles.
    Anyway, is there a law which generally forbids being a dishonest person? or generally prohibits lie? Supposing the answer is "no", is it OK be dishonest or be a liar?
    In other words you disagree with someone and therefore trying to shut them down and tar them by accusing them of being anti Semitic.
    It's not about me, but about Jewish British students. And it's not about disagreement, but about offensive speech.
    No, I just want honest and open debate.
    It looks like you have your own definition of "honest and open debate", if you even deny Oxford basic definitions.
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    (Original post by User1213)
    Aren't you going to play the 'anti Semite' card?
    Nope. I don't say that a national movement for sovereignty "stinks". It's your stinky game, not mine.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Can I from now on call you "Our Great Teacher"? :cool:

    Nope. The question in the referendum was "Should Scotland be an independent country?". "should", not "can". Do you understand the difference, Our Great Teacher?
    Not to mention the fact that comparison of Scottish people, voted in their independence referendum, and Malia Bouattia, who attacks Zionism, is utterly stupid.

    You forgot common law, which defines general constitutional principles.
    Anyway, is there a law which generally forbids being a dishonest person? or generally prohibits lie? Supposing the answer is "no", is it OK be dishonest or be a liar?

    It's not about me, but about Jewish British students. And it's not about disagreement, but about offensive speech.

    It looks like you have your own definition of "honest and open debate", if you even deny Oxford basic definitions.
    You don't have a right not to be offended. Personally i'm a fan of freedom of speech where everyone can say whatever they want and if you disagree then you can choose to either ignore them or challenge them.

    What you're doing is similar to what SJW do. You are trying to ban free speech. If you disagree with her then challenge or ignore her. Don't throw lazy accusations of anti-semitism at her.

    Again Jews can be non-zionist, non-jews can be Zionist. The notion that opposing zionism makes you anti-semitic is absurd.
    I believe that Israel (and all other countries) should be secular democracies in which no religion is the 'official one' and in which no one religious or ethnic group is prioritised over the other.The idea that that makes someone anti-semitic is tripe.

    Stop crying and complaining because someone said something you don't like. Stop trying to shut down debate on Israel by accusing anyone who opposes zionism or the Israel' government actions of being anti-semitic and learn to debate and discuss.

    Also please do not make out like you speak for all British Jewish students. Jewish people are not one bloc of people who all think the same. They all have their own opinions and take on things and many Jewish people oppose zionism, just as many non-Jewish students support it. The idea that all Jewish students think the same and are incapable of forming their own opinion is a load of nonsense.
    Just because a select group of Jewish students take offence to her, it does not make her an anti-semite.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Criticizing Zionism means that Jews have no right to have their national state. If this is not anti-semitic, then what is?
    So do you believe every single ethno-national group is entitled so a separate nation-state, and that anyone who opposes any such state for any reason is guilty of racism towards the group in question? For example, is most of the world guilty of anti-Abkhaz racism when it rejects the legitimacy of the self-proclaimed state of Abkhazia?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Not to mention the fact that comparison of Scottish people, voted in their independence referendum, and Malia Bouattia, who attacks Zionism, is utterly stupid.
    True, it's a bad comparison, though I suspect not for the reasons you think: there was no referendum in Mandatory Palestine on the creation of any kind of state. And modern Scottish nationalism has largely been an incarnation of civic nationalist, while Zionism has been one of ethnic nationalism.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
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