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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    Where to begin, you complain of non-sensical, or at least agree with, posts, and you yourself give out replys like "quite" and "oh do continue",
    "quite" is a reiteration of my support for a point. "oh do continue", was in response to a personal judgement/criticism of me which, if you read the Read Me! sticky prior to its removal, is not considered welcome on the forum and as such, "off-limits". in response, i thus have every right to meet you at the same level.

    which in my book count as spam as they are irrelevant, unnecessary and ambiguous. All of which, surely, causes a breakdown in disscussion.
    see above and then your initial post.

    You complain of complainers and are one of the most notorious complainers on the forum.
    where did I complain about "complainers"?

    You complain of a poor standard of posts, yet you consistantly fail to mantain a fluency and consistency in your own posts.
    ill be pleased to see extracts of such in an effort to improve my standards.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    Fair enough vienna - if you think that d&d doesn't have a problem with the quality and variety of debate deteriating that's fine
    did you not read the thread?

    OK - you do think there is a problem - you just don't accept my opinion as a non regular who has been put off and the things that have put me off as being valid for anyone else
    If you had particular reason to feel offended then I cant remember it being raised here. Abusive or insulting posts are not welcomed, but as the sticky mentioned, you will be challenged and people will not agree with you and some people will not even understand the point. If youre uncomfortable with that then in the climate of the current UKL forum, i dont believe you will enjoy posting here.

    I'm obviously just unique
    well, I did notice you were among the few who moaned about this OUTSIDE of d+d.
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    I don't think this helps to be honest. This thread is about the quality (or lack thereof) of the D&D forum. Shouldn't really be taking things so personally.

    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness
    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness (couldn't help it sorry!)

    There should be 1 thread for each of the major issues
    eg
    -fox hunting
    -abortion
    -death penalty
    -religious extremists...
    ...
    ...

    I quite enjoyed airing my views when I first came on here. It's nice to actually debate the issues with people who aren't always trying to persuade the opposition to change their views. Trouble is, when new people come onto D&D they start threads about the same things and personally I don't like having the same debate over and over again.

    And occasionally there's the odd poster that starts what they think is a really phillosophical subject, like 'where do we go when we die', and the thread-starter seems to think that they are the only person who has ever thought about it, therefore they must be more intelligent than everyone else who posts beneath them :rolleyes: !!
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    "quite" is a reiteration of my support for a point. "oh do continue", was in response to a personal judgement/criticism of me which, if you read the Read Me! sticky prior to its removal, is not considered welcome on the forum and as such, "off-limits". in response, i thus have every right to meet you at the same level.
    No, if you feel a confrontation to your argument is a personal critisism, then so be it. I was simply presenting to you how you fail to mantain fluency by posting ambiguous replies which often leave the person who it is directed at confused and unsure of exactly what you mean. I for one, have felt like this when you respond to some of my posts, and, though this is off topic, that is one of the reasons I find coming to D&D quite annoying.


    (Original post by vienna95)
    where did I complain about "complainers"?
    You complained about the forum being full of "moaning [and] self-appreciation" threads.



    (Original post by vienna95)
    ill be pleased to see extracts of such in an effort to improve my standards.
    Im not going to trawl through threads finding examples now, but if you take heed of the above, then that will do sufficiantly for now.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    I don't think this helps to be honest. This thread is about the quality (or lack thereof) of the D&D forum. Shouldn't really be taking things so personally.
    well, I can definately agree there. I think Jonatan was quite right in highlighting that posts on d+d can be compared in terms of quality and some are clearly better than others.

    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness
    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness (couldn't help it sorry!)

    There should be 1 thread for each of the major issues
    eg
    -fox hunting
    -abortion
    -death penalty
    -religious extremists...
    ...
    ...
    I tried to alleviate this problem with some links, unfortunately the entire thread has been wiped. Im willing to do it again with any suggestions, help etc.

    I quite enjoyed airing my views when I first came on here. It's nice to actually debate the issues with people who aren't always trying to persuade the opposition to change their views.
    yep. or give an opposing one that perhaps you dont always hold yourself.

    Trouble is, when new people come onto D&D they start threads about the same things and personally I don't like having the same debate over and over again.
    I think this is why we need to raise the point quickly and provide an alternative link. Other than that, it lies in the moderators hands.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    If you had particular reason to feel offended then I cant remember it being raised here. Abusive or insulting posts are not welcomed, but as the sticky mentioned, you will be challenged and people will not agree with you and some people will not even understand the point. If youre uncomfortable with that then in the climate of the current UKL forum, i dont believe you will enjoy posting here.
    Not to worry - noone has been offensive or insulting (apart from gnostic but then he does it with style and I know he adores me really so I let it pass).

    I don't even mind being challenged on my views (and unlike some I'm more than happy to concede a point or two when I'm wrong).

    I don't like retreading the same points over and over again and on the odd occassion when you try to turn move a debate on from a stagnant point you get ignored because it's apparantly more "fun" to carry on picking apart each others posts on a topic which all parties are never going to change their opinion, I don't like the fact that any sort of levity or friendliness is apparantly looked down on in d&d - humour is a very strong debating tool which is much underused here, I don't like the political emphasis to the forum - there *is* more to life than politics, debating the antics of political figures and parties is all very well but the only time it's actually relevent to 90% of the population is when policies have an affect on real life issues.

    This is just my opinion, as I said earlier, as a none outsider who usually enjoys debating but who has been put off d&d by it's atmosphere and rigidity and to be honest it's downright dullness.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    I don't think this helps to be honest. This thread is about the quality (or lack thereof) of the D&D forum. Shouldn't really be taking things so personally.

    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness
    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness (couldn't help it sorry!)

    There should be 1 thread for each of the major issues
    eg
    -fox hunting
    -abortion
    -death penalty
    -religious extremists...
    ...
    ...

    I quite enjoyed airing my views when I first came on here. It's nice to actually debate the issues with people who aren't always trying to persuade the opposition to change their views. Trouble is, when new people come onto D&D they start threads about the same things and personally I don't like having the same debate over and over again.

    And occasionally there's the odd poster that starts what they think is a really phillosophical subject, like 'where do we go when we die', and the thread-starter seems to think that they are the only person who has ever thought about it, therefore they must be more intelligent than everyone else who posts beneath them :rolleyes: !!
    I think one of the main reasons for repetitiveness of simialr issues is that people develop different arguments and views about the issue, and don't want it to tie in with another thread and so decide to make a new thread. I think thats ok, as long as they make sure that a thread on their view has not already been made.

    Apart from that, I think many people don't want to trawl through often hundreds of posts before making theres.
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    (Original post by Mad Caddie)
    No, if you feel a confrontation to your argument
    is a personal critisism, then so be it.
    "you are quite the hypocrit" - is that a personal criticism, yes or no?

    I was simply presenting to you how you fail to mantain fluency by posting ambiguous replies which often leave the person who it is directed at confused and unsure of exactly what you mean.
    thats not what you said initially. "which in my book count as spam as they are irrelevant, unnecessary". the meaning of the word "quite" is very simply an appreciation of the point being made.

    I for one, have felt like this when you respond to some of my posts, and, though this is off topic, that is one of the reasons I find coming to D&D quite annoying.
    and not because im a power-hungry "dictator" as you labelled me? ill save posting the PM.

    You complained about the forum being full of "moaning [and] self-appreciation" threads.
    moaning and complaining are different.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    I don't think this helps to be honest. This thread is about the quality (or lack thereof) of the D&D forum. Shouldn't really be taking things so personally.

    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness
    I think there's definitely a problem with repetativeness (couldn't help it sorry!)

    There should be 1 thread for each of the major issues
    eg
    -fox hunting
    -abortion
    -death penalty
    -religious extremists...
    ...
    ...

    I quite enjoyed airing my views when I first came on here. It's nice to actually debate the issues with people who aren't always trying to persuade the opposition to change their views. Trouble is, when new people come onto D&D they start threads about the same things and personally I don't like having the same debate over and over again.
    I agree actually - but rather than vilifying newbies for starting new threads and allowing the new threads to sink into the surface (or as has happened in some cases recently get them deleted) the new threads should be merged with the uber-threads...that way rather than having 5-10 threads discussing the minutiea (sp?) of a topic the debate would be wide ranging and move around all areas of an issue - trying to pigeon hole a topic like abortion or religion into smaller and smaller areas just narrows the debate and makes it more likely that people will lose interest and that new viewpoints will be brought into the debate.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    I don't even mind being challenged on my views (and unlike some I'm more than happy to concede a point or two when I'm wrong).
    hmm, consistent use of suggestion there.

    I don't like retreading the same points over and over again and on the odd occassion when you try to turn move a debate on from a stagnant point you get ignored because it's apparantly more "fun" to carry on picking apart each others posts on a topic which all parties are never going to change their opinion,
    some people like to get to the root of justification. its not just about sharing opinions, its about being able to justify them aswell.

    I don't like the fact that any sort of levity or friendliness is apparantly looked down on in d&d - humour is a very strong debating tool which is much underused here, I don't like the political emphasis to the forum - there *is* more to life than politics, debating the antics of political figures and parties is all very well but the only time it's actually relevent to 90% of the population is when policies have an affect on real life issues.
    i cant stop people creating political threads. there was a thread about sunbeds for instance. i was quite happy to read it if it discussed the merits of sunbeds or the possible health risks, but noone took it seriously. it was of a "shall i go to the tanning salon?" nature and subsequently moved by Expression.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    "you are quite the hypocrit" - is that a personal criticism, yes or no?
    I would see it more as an observation.


    (Original post by vienna95)
    thats not what you said initially. "which in my book count as spam as they are irrelevant, unnecessary". the meaning of the word "quite" is very simply an appreciation of the point being made.
    Its also ambiguous and quite open-ended. Im not sure about France, but in the UK, as far as I know, you give a response like that, and it is deemed sarcastic and mocking towards the person it is directed at, simply because it is so vague.


    (Original post by vienna95)
    and not because im a power-hungry "dictator" as you labelled me? ill save posting the PM.
    No, that still applies. Feel free to post the PM, or even reply, I would be intrigued to what your response is.


    (Original post by vienna95)
    moaning and complaining are different.
    Erm...no they are not. Different words, yes. Different meaning, no.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    there was a thread about sunbeds for instance. i was quite happy to read it if it discussed the merits of sunbeds or the possible health risks, but noone took it seriously. it was of a "shall i go to the tanning salon?" nature and subsequently moved by Expression.
    that wasn't how your posts came across in the thread - just as people started to try debating you came in with a jokey comment demanding it's removal to GC. It only deteriorated into "shall I go to a tanning salon" *after* it was moved to GC and any attempts at debate were swallowed.

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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    that wasn't how your posts came across in the thread - just as people started to try debating you came in with a jokey comment demanding it's removal to GC. It only deteriorated into "shall I go to a tanning salon" *after* it was moved to GC and any attempts at debate were swallowed.

    Shame
    having re-looked at the thread, the starting post was the reason i wanted it moved. then after 3 or 4 posts of "ooh i want a tan", i reported. i wasnt the only one to my knowledge.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    I don't like the political emphasis to the forum - there *is* more to life than politics, debating the antics of political figures and parties is all very well but the only time it's actually relevent to 90% of the population is when policies have an affect on real life issues.
    But generally there are 2 sides to everything, which fit in to left/right wing principals. There are those who tend to have consistent left/right wing views on most issues, so discussion usually comes down to these basics.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    hmm, consistent use of suggestion there.
    yup - suggestion - only to be taken personally if you have a low opinion of yourself - much like these comments could be :
    (Original post by vienna95)
    standards are important in D+D unlike other areas of the forum.
    (Original post by vienna95)
    "good" debaters debate in an environment permissive of debate. not one where *hugs*, spam and issues of rep are commonplace. the "good" debaters have left because if you peruse the threads opened recently, as I have, this level of one-line off topic chatter has increased and the value of a good argument has decreased. in that respect im not surprised.
    (Original post by vienna95)
    it is welcoming of people who give priority to discussion of current affairs, above moaning, self-appreciation and obtaining 11 rep gems.
    (Original post by vienna95)
    I think Jonatan was quite right in highlighting that posts on d+d can be compared in terms of quality and some are clearly better than others.
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    (Original post by Amb1)
    But generally there are 2 sides to everything, which fit in to left/right wing principals. There are those who tend to have consistent left/right wing views on most issues, so discussion usually comes down to these basics.
    That I don't mind - it's the multitude of threads that start off from those basics that seem pointless and that I don't like - and they do seem very common in here
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    Oh and on that comment:
    (Original post by vienna95)
    it is welcoming of people who give priority to discussion of current affairs, above moaning, self-appreciation and obtaining 11 rep gems.
    I love a good debate, I don't enjoy moaning (and that moaning which I do do I confine to the moaning thread), I certainly don't think I'm "all that" and I couldn't care less about rep.

    Yet I don't feel welcome here....

    (Original post by Amb1)
    But generally there are 2 sides to everything, which fit in to left/right wing principals. There are those who tend to have consistent left/right wing views on most issues, so discussion usually comes down to these basics.
    Yes, the debates on UKL are very unoriginal, the simple re-hash of left v right. Very boring, it's been done a millions times before and has been expressed with far more sophistication and insight.

    NEWS FLASH: NOTHING NEW IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE. You lot are simply repeating the thoughts and ideas of dead people.

    Instead of dancing the old dualisms how about attempting to transcend them, to think new thoughts, to create new ideas, to develop new insights. To give birth to new ways of thinking, to discover new worlds of the mind.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    yup - suggestion - only to be taken personally if you have a low opinion of yourself - much like these comments could be :
    they could be, but then it would be used to distinguish the nature between forums,as being discussed, and not an individual.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    Oh and on that comment:


    I love a good debate, I don't enjoy moaning (and that moaning which I do do I confine to the moaning thread), I certainly don't think I'm "all that" and I couldn't care less about rep.

    Yet I don't feel welcome here....
    well, then it appears to be your issue.
 
 
 
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