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    (Original post by PortfolioManager)
    Just out of curiousity, Drogue are you seeing Helenia? Couple of times I have noticed you guys defending each other, helping each other out, editing each other's posts, etc. Seems lik you guys are a 'mod couple'? Hehehe, quite funny...
    It's only taken you a year to work out... :p:

    Though I'm not sure when we edit each others' posts - unless he makes some cringy spelling mistake and my OCD gets the better of me.
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    (Original post by CityMonkey)
    No, don't mistake me for whatever Johan or others has said. I said from people I know who do medicine, my understanding is that medicine is majorly based around a lot of memorisation. In fact, I have had numerous medic friends say that on the intellectual scale, undergraduate medicine is not that very interesting, and the profession itself requires a lot of legwork/consultant ass kissing to get to the position they really want. Evidently, you're countering this, and so is Helenia, and that's fair enough. I did not at any point say medics are not intellectuals, nor did I ever claim that those at the forefront of medical research are monkeys who are only memorising facts. I am comparing like for like, undergrad medicine with undergrad physics/maths/philosophy etc; I'm not sure where I ever compared doctors as a vocation to academia in other subjects. And at no point did I compare professions. In short, old boy, you're barking up the wrong tree.
    Ahhh, my bad. I was arguing against what Johan, you, Ben and others had said, so just did it all in one. I'd probably agree undergrad medicine is a lot more about memorising than the economics I did, but then I'd say that about most sciences. In fact, it's why I've always thought my degree was less academic, since you could get by without knowing a huge amount of stuff.

    (Original post by PortfolioManager)
    Just out of curiousity, Drogue are you seeing Helenia? Couple of times I have noticed you guys defending each other, helping each other out, editing each other's posts, etc. Seems lik you guys are a 'mod couple'? Hehehe, quite funny...
    Yes, for quite a while now. But we don't edit each others posts. Or at least, I don't edit hers
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    (Original post by Drogue)
    No, you use Black Scholes.
    Back in the 1980s, I might have, but thank goodness finance is fast moving - right?

    You're no more creating your own pricing method than a medic is creating their own diagnosing method.
    That was true until about 3 months ago.

    As a trader, you won't ever (I'd imagine) publish your new method of pricing something.
    That's because I'd stop making so much money...

    Similarly, as a medic, you'd never publish your new method of diagnosing something. But every patient is different, and so you have to learn to think, to apply your knowledge to work out what it is. The same way for every derivitive, or even just stock or bond, you have to think to work out the best way of applying your pricing knowledge to see if it's under- or overvalued.
    I'm not a medic. You're not a trader or a prop trader... as a flow trader this is all quite different... but doing what I do, relies on thinking. A lot. There are a number of very smart people out there who want to take their money. It's a very flat playground out there and the winners are the ones with useful brains.

    In this playground where battle is taking place every open day, it's on the field where development is taking place. Not with the academics who make that breakthrough once every now and then. The revolutionary changes get the photoshoots. The little ones made everyday that keep pushing finance forward, keep making money, are quiet but surprisingly fast. And definitely require some thought because if you don't, some other bugger who does will take the shirt off your back and rip your face off.
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    (Original post by President_Ben)
    Back in the 1980s, I might have, but thank goodness finance is fast moving - right?
    Hence just using it as an illustration.

    (Original post by President_Ben)
    I'm not a medic. You're not a trader or a prop trader... as a flow trader this is all quite different... but doing what I do, relies on thinking. A lot. There are a number of very smart people out there who want to take their money. It's a very flat playground out there and the winners are the ones with useful brains.

    In this playground where battle is taking place every open day, it's on the field where development is taking place. Not with the academics who make that breakthrough once every now and then. The revolutionary changes get the photoshoots. The little ones made everyday that keep pushing finance forward, keep making money, are quiet but surprisingly fast. And definitely require some thought because if you don't, some other bugger who does will take the shirt off your back and rip your face off.
    You see, I understand this. This was what I was (badly) referring to as to some extent. But the same is true of a medic - every patient's different, and while you don't have another doctor trying to beat you to it, you do have the challenge of of thinking through something new. There are little changes pushing medicine forward too in the same way. Now, perhaps a prop trader has less routine than a doctor, but it's the same ballpark we're talking about, in terms of using your brain and adapting it to the current situation or problem.
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    (Original post by Drogue)
    Now, perhaps a prop trader has less routine than a doctor, but it's the same ballpark we're talking about, in terms of using your brain and adapting it to the current situation or problem.
    You'll have to forgive me for agreeing to really wholeheartedly, disagree.

    On the one hand, there is invention. On the other, there is application. In the pursuit of money, traders invent. They don't sit down and wait for it to appear from the academic world but will certainly grab at anything that does.

    In medicine, the practice of it - and for I think trading can be considered part of the practice of finance - invention is a flat line. There are many reasons for that, many are very reasonable, ie. you can't experiment with the health of a patient on a whim like you can with money. But it does mean that the practice of finance, to trade, can most certainly be an intellectual activity that produces and pushes ahead while the practice of medicine, does not. Nor should it.
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    Drogue, there are two debates here, let's not get confused. Ben is arguing that the practice of medicine is not intellectually challenging. CityMonkey and I are saying that the degree isn't ; I only mentioned the job itself because a couple of people were using the argument that a doctor has the patient's life in his hands to prove that the subject requires hardcore thinking.


    (Original post by Drogue)
    I suppose it's a different challenge, in that medical questions require more knowledge but possibly less thinking than some degrees. For example an English student who knows the basics of a topic could write a brilliant essay, if they were amazingly bright and able at English; whereas a medic doesn't so much need to be naturally brilliant as know a huge amount about illness, symtoms and medication. But that's only the emphasis, there's still a hell of a lot of actually figuring out what to do with it. Sure, the emphasis is on knowing stuff, but that's the same for most science, and it's just because there's a huge body of knowledge you need to know.

    Indeed, I'd argue you can do adequately well in any degree if you know lots of information, even if you're not great at using it. If you've memorised hundreds of criticisms of a book you're examined on, whatever question comes up you'll have various interesting and on-topic points to make. It won't be brilliant, without personal insight, but it can easily be 2:1 standard.

    Medicine is much more work than almost any other subject, and requires a greater level of actual knowledge than any other. True, it may require less personal insight than some, perhaps even less own thinking, but it still requires quite a bit, and on top of the huge body of knowledge, it's a large intellectual challenge. If you define "intellectually challenging" as "requires a lot of thinking", then that's a pretty narrow definition, and misses out the whole section of actually knowing stuff.

    I'd definitely agree about the amount of knowledge and hard work required, and I strongly respect that. But when I stress the intellectual challenge, I do use the narrower definition (requires a lot of thinking), although it's not as narrow as you seem to think - having studied literature quite a bit, I know writing a good essay that shows independent thinking and includes subtle insights as well as displaying perfect knowledge of the texts covered can be every bit as difficult and rewarding as pure science or econ. Not sure about the entrance grades - I think you're pushing it slightly - but let's face it, that's the main problem with school-leaving qualifications in general and A-Levels in particular - they just don't prove much about pure intelligence anymore.

    As to your second post, I'd say I find Econ requires quite a lot of thinking in learning, understanding and using the models in new ways - that's the whole point of a model, isn't it ? You learn the basic graph(s) and equations and then you can be asked or ask yourself mostly anything related and have to figure out what the model predicts - and it's not just plugging numbers into a formula, as you well know. Most people I know who study the subject find it's very demanding in terms of thinking. In the same way, I feel I have grounds to think that Medicine as it's taught in 90% of universities is not demanding in this "pure understanding" way - you know, the kind of understanding that allows you to look around you in a lecture and see myriad baffled faces gaping wide-eyed. With regards to the rest of your post, I just explained I'm not confusing degree with vocation, although I can understand that you might have thought I was.
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    (Original post by Drogue)
    Ahhh, my bad. I was arguing against what Johan, you, Ben and others had said, so just did it all in one. I'd probably agree undergrad medicine is a lot more about memorising than the economics I did, but then I'd say that about most sciences. In fact, it's why I've always thought my degree was less academic, since you could get by without knowing a huge amount of stuff.
    Well, then I'd say you're wrong. I'm just doing a module on group theory, pretty much 60% of that module is based around 4 axioms I could write on half an A4 sheet. Anyone will tell you all of undergrad QM hinges on 5 postulates, and the only real memorising I need to do is the Scrhodinger Equation. The rest is logical, mathematical and abstract consequences of those axioms and postulates. I'd much rather this, where I have to think and not really need to know much than memorise a book to spew out into a multiple choice test.
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    (Original post by wicked88)
    I cannot be that foolish if I am studying a medical degree now can I? And yes, I still stand by my point. Passion and Interest=motivation which leads to success , and I would be lucky to get 2:1 in English, a subject for which I have no care in the world for and for which its relevance to me is Zero

    You my friend, are disturbingly ignorant not to understand such a statement, but I dont blame you.
    Good for you mate, one of my sisters is also studying medicine and i am planning on going on to study dentistry. Just to point out it is a well known fact that the three most intense subjects to study are Veternary science, dentistry and medicine in that order >> not english! If you dont believe that through me talk to any one of your tutors or lecturers. I have no care for your interests or motivation i was merely stating fact.
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    (Original post by Jamie:D)
    Good for you mate, one of my sisters is also studying medicine and i am planning on going on to study dentistry. Just to point out it is a well known fact that the three most intense subjects to study are Veternary science, dentistry and medicine in that order >> not english! If you dont believe that through me talk to any one of your tutors or lecturers. I have no care for your interests or motivation i was merely stating fact.
    Workload is not the only factor. Wicked88's point, which was entirely valid, was that he would find English harder than his present course, because he doesn't have any interest in it and the nature of the course is completely different. Also, your unfounded assertion about dentistry made me lol.
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    What assertion was this which was soo funny?
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    The "well known fact" that dentistry is more intense than medicine... It's not ridiculous, but it's not exactly well accepted. I suspect that medical and dental courses vary so much from university to university that the university has more of an impact than whether it's medicine or dentistry. That said, vet medicine is definitely more work than either because you have to do lots of placements in your holidays and obviously vets have to learn about lots of different animals rather than focusing on just one.
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    I don't study dentistry yet so i can't agrue with you till the cows come home, i am stating what tutors from my local med school/dental school agreed upon
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    (Original post by Johan C)
    How very convenient.



    I do. I hope my opinion of you is very clear.

    More seriously, my modules this year :
    - Micro
    - Macro
    - Principles of Finance
    - Managerial Accounting

    The last one is boring, essay-based, beancounting, yadda yadda yadda. Change your tune. The other three ? They're the ones taken by the majority of LSE Econ graduates in their 2nd year - you know, that pushover course that runs rings around yours.
    I'm sorry, but you're kidding yourself if you think Economics or Accounting and Finance are more intellectually challenging than medicine. I don't think Medicine is intellectually challenging either, one of my housemates and good friends studies it, and she says it's mostly just memorising vast amounts of information, a lot of it irrelevent and pointless, but the same can be said about Economics, probably even to a greater extent. At least Medics actually do something useful, which is more than you can say for 99.9% of Economists.
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    (Original post by Barny)
    I'm sorry, but you're kidding yourself if you think Economics or Accounting and Finance are more intellectually challenging than medicine. I don't think Medicine is intellectually challenging either, one of my housemates and good friends studies it, and she says it's mostly just memorising vast amounts of information, a lot of it irrelevent and pointless, but the same can be said about Economics, probably even to a greater extent. At least Medics actually do something useful, which is more than you can say for 99.9% of Economists.
    I'm sorry but that is BS. I don't pretend to know about medicine, but speaking as a lazy ****, I WISH economics was just memorisation with no thinking. Looking at what my friends on other courses are doing (History, Geography) Economics involves a LOT more critical thinking. You learn the concepts and theories, and then have to work out how to apply them- very different to learning what creates a valley for example.
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    Economics might involve a lot more critical thinking than History or Geography, but that's because History and Geography are quite frankly a joke. Economics compared to Medicine is not more difficult, and not more intellectually challenging, not by a long shot.
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    (Original post by Barny)
    Economics might involve a lot more critical thinking than History or Geography, but that's because History and Geography are quite frankly a joke. Economics compared to Medicine is not more difficult, and not more intellectually challenging, not by a long shot.
    I never said it was more intellectually challenging than medicine- I took issue with your description of economics as a subject that only involved large amounts of mindless memorisation. A description which in my experience could not be more wrong.
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    I meant that there is as much logical and critical thinking, if not more, in Medicine than there is in Economics. You also have to memorise much more information in Medicine, therefore Medicine as a whole is a much more difficult and intellectually challenging subject than Economics.
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    (Original post by Barny)
    I meant that there is as much logical and critical thinking, if not more, in Medicine than there is in Economics. You also have to memorise much more information in Medicine, therefore Medicine as a whole is a much more difficult and intellectually challenging subject than Economics.
    you realise you just contradicted yourself?

    quote:

    /I don't think Medicine is intellectually challenging either, one of my housemates and good friends studies it, and she says it's mostly just memorising vast amounts of information, a lot of it irrelevent and pointless, but the same can be said about Economics, probably even to a greater extent./

    I'm saying there is very little memorisation of information in economics, its is mostly understanding and applying concepts and thinking about it in an intelligent way.

    Either you think the fact that there is a lot of rote memorisation in medicine means it is hard and intellectually challenging, or not, which is it? I would personally go so far as to say medicine is harder in the sense it demands large amounts of time from you, but the material itself is not as academically interesting/difficult as economics.
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    I didn't contradict myself. Do you understand the concept of relativity? If I think Medicine is MORE intellectually challenging than Economics I am not saying that Medicine is intellectually challenging or that Economics is intellectually challenging, just simply that one is more so than the other. The fact that I have already stated that I don't think Medicine is especially intellectually challenging should help you infer how I feel about Economics.
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    (Original post by Barny)
    Economics might involve a lot more critical thinking than History or Geography, but that's because History and Geography are quite frankly a joke. Economics compared to Medicine is not more difficult, and not more intellectually challenging, not by a long shot.
    Are you taking the mickey ?
 
 
 
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