Should women earn as much as men? Watch

charliechaplin
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theres some ridiculous purple comments flying about, stick to the kitchen.
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envious
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#62
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This thread is really interesting and to be honest I am mildly shocked by some of the views expressed.

Firstly, the fact that you even have to ask this question saddens me greatly. Of course women deserve equal pay for equal work. I don't know why they proposition always brings people to suggest that women are somehow incapable or unwilling of doing exactly the same work as men as in almost all cases this just simply isn't the case. The typical argument that more men go into highly paid areas may seem to be convincing until one examines the underlying reasons as to why exactly some fields are more highly paid than others. Unsurprisingly, as equality is a relatively recent idea, gender inequality is pretty entrenched within all of us and our perceptions of the value of certain jobs. Studies have found that female dominated job areas are often significantly less well paid than the respective male areas despite the two fields requiring a similar level of skill, time etc. I think that this is a real problem and needs to be addressed if women are to be paid fairly.

There also seems to be a general opinion that any cost or detriment that arises from having children should lie only with women and not with society as a whole or businesses. The benefits however that having children allows society (e.g. creating the future workforce, as future tax payers they will be needed to pay for pensions etc) will be enjoyed by almost everyone, especially businesses. The wholly short term, capitalist approach that many of you take towards this issue seems to ignore the fact that companies are already asked and are willing to shoulder the costs for other "burdens" in society such as old age through occupational pensions so I see no reason why asking a company to pay for a few months of pay whilst a woman has a child will suddenly create mass hardship for firms. Of course cost cutting companies may be tempted to not hire women of typical child bearing age in an attempt to avoid paying maternity pay but cost conscious firms also try to avoid paying other taxes and will attempt to ignore human rights issues to save money. Neither of these approaches would be condoned by most people and go to prove why as a society we do not allow companies to always opt for the cheapest option and absolve themselves of any responsibility towards the wider community. I think that people should begin to view maternity pay not as a cost that is unnecessarily inflicted upon businesses by women, but instead an unavoidable cost that all companies will incur if they wish to operate in a country that values equality and children as much as we do.
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Bornstubborn
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#63
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(Original post by Reblet)
The more you type the more bigoted you sound therefore I refuse to believe that I as a "soft subject" student. could ever be "out-performed" by you a "hard subject" student.

So you're basing your evidence on female junior doctors on what you saw once in A&E? Wow, great evidence you have there... Any link to this "article" you keep banging on about?

Why would you calss English Literature as soft? Why is Psychology soft? Can your prove these are less valuable degrees? Psychology can lead to a highly profitable career and English isn't considered a "soft" option by anyone, it's just a degree that further proves your intellect without actually qualifying you for anything. Yes there are more men in Science subjects and more women in Arts subjects. The Science world is still very male dominated and many women feel intimidated applying for Engineering etc. knowing they will be in a tiny minority. Hardly surprising...
Anyway you seem to argue that the profitable vocational degrees like Engineering are full of men thus the men all deserve well-paid jobs whilst us soft-minded females should run off and be Social workers. If this is your argument then I think you seem to be missing the big guns like medicine and law... You know? The most profitable degrees? Go and look at the male/female stats for those (I'll give you a clue - they ruin your argument completely) then you can talk about men chosing the more profitable subjects. :rolleyes:

I cling to the hope that I will never meet anyone as chauvinist as you in my life. Though I suspect I may not be this lucky...

The level of bigotry of someone is not a value of intelligence. There are very many bigoted intelligent people.

I do not think you are out performing anyone. I do like you pretty pink writing though

I think it is clear that men do a lot more over time than women. Do you debate this?

Psychology and English lit are both soft subjects. I am sorry if this upsets you. I expect you study English lit?

Science and engineering are very difficult subjects with lots of maths. I believe it was you claiming women are out performing men at university, i think that is a worthless assumption without putting value to the course's men and women are taking.

I am not sure about the amount of women in medecine and law. However when i was recently at the hospital i was being treated by lots of male doctors from other countries. Not exactly a good sign huh?

You can pray and hope you don't meet me. Maybe i would give you terrible nightmare's huh? A horrible person like me? Don't be so dramatic its embarrasing.
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shorty.loves.angels
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)

I do not think you are out performing anyone. I do like you pretty pink writing though
For a start the writings purple... wake up :rolleyes:
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Reblet
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This bloody thread will turn me into a feminist I swear...

I guarentee that most men in this thread will expect their wives to have their children (i.e. ruin their figures, have 9 months of discomfort and sickness then suffer immeasurable pain at the end of it) then look after then whilst they go off to work. YET these same men are abhorred at the idea that women might actually need the incentive of pay to get them to do this. The mothering instinct isn't so strong that you want to **** up your career just because you happen to be having a child. Maternity leave is a drop in the ocean for company expenditures. Will companies really begrudge a good female worker a job because for 5 months she will be away and they may have to pay her for this so she will want to actually come back to work? As far as I see it is NO worse than sickness leave. Women need to spend time with their offspring to look after them (as society and men expect them to do, ill people unable to do their jobs also need paid time off work where they may not recover/may lose skills/may become disillusioned and not return... So why is maternity leave any worse? I guarentee that sickness pay and even more so fake sickness pay drains far more money than maternity leave and guess who are more likely to be the culprits on say an FA Cup final day to commit sickness leave fraud?
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Absinth
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:ottid:
(Original post by Crystaltears)
It's fair that men earn more money because they do more work, but what is not fair is that women can't work as many hours or travel because they have to be the ones responsible for the children. Why can't the men work part-time?
I think it's fine that men are earning more if they are doing more work, but I find it really unfair that women are expected to be the ones that have to be the primary carers for the children, so they don't have the opportunity to earn as much as men.
Yes, men probably are more willing to work in dangerous environments, but most of those jobs are not the very highly paid anyway, so it doesn't really affect this issue.
Also, it's not really fair to discriminate against women because they have to take maternity leave. I really doubt many women look forward to the pain of childbirth. And men want kids too - it's just that women have to push it out!
Men are encouraged to do more profitable subjects like politics and science, where as girls are always socialised into subjects like health and social care etc. It's not a coincidence that 82% of nurses are female!!

I totally agree with what you have said about women should not earn as much as men for doing less work, but women are not given the same opportunities as men and that is not fair. Gender stereo-types need to be broken down.

*feminist rant over*
Very good, coherent post.
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Reblet
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(Original post by charliechaplin)
theres some ridiculous purple comments flying about, stick to the kitchen.
More men are murdered in the kitchen than in any other room in the home... Thought I might give you a heads up for the day your poor better half will resort to plunging a carving knife into your body
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WithFlyingColours
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#68
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Yes because that one example can be extrapolated to apply to all women....
Well, I think you'll find it's big powerful companies like BA who have a lot more power over these figures than any of us as they're in the driving seat with regards to who they employ and how much they pay to those employees. If they get their hands stung by one incredibly selfish, unfair woman then they're going to not employ women. That sound logical?

Of course, you would maybe understand if you studied hard, logic based subjects like Engineering
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Bornstubborn
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#69
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(Original post by Reblet)
This bloody thread will turn me into a feminist I swear...

I guarentee that most men in this thread will expect their wives to have their children (i.e. ruin their figures, have 9 months of discomfort and sickness then suffer immeasurable pain at the end of it) then look after then whilst they go off to work. YET these same men are abhorred at the idea that women might actually need the incentive of pay to get them to do this. The mothering instinct isn't so strong that you want to **** up your career just because you happen to be having a child. Maternity leave is a drop in the ocean for company expenditures. Will companies really begrudge a good female worker a job because for 5 months she will be away and they may have to pay her for this so she will want to actually come back to work? As far as I see it is NO worse than sickness leave. Women need to spend time with their offspring to look after them (as society and men expect them to do, ill people unable to do their jobs also need paid time off work where they may not recover/may lose skills/may become disillusioned and not return... So why is maternity leave any worse? I guarentee that sickness pay and even more so fake sickness pay drains far more money than maternity leave and guess who are more likely to be the culprits on say an FA Cup final day to commit sickness leave fraud?
To be honest, i would not care if my wife did not want to work full stop. If she wanted to stay at home and be a housewife i would not mind.

Maternity leave can be very costly to small business. Some business' employ very many women, over ten years they could lose a large sum of money to maternity leave, especially if some of these women are on big salaries.

Women can choose what they wish to do with themselves, you cannot claim society or men expect things from women. Women have control of their own bodies and lives and choose what they wish to do.

Sickness cannot be helped and if there is more men on sick leave i expect that may be a result of doing more manual work. Perhaps the girls went out to watch sex and the city and afterwards went to a trendy bar to drink cosmopolitans and so she could not turn up for work the next day, you can't say men have more sick days because of football.

Infact this article proves the opposite. Men take less sick days http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/412574.stm .Also women take a lot more sick leave than men aswell http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/96616.php http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-days-men.html
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AussieKat
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#70
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Women are just as, if not more, intelligent than men... fair enough, men are more built to do the labouring work but we should be equal! Power to the women!! x
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WithFlyingColours
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Perhaps the girls went out to watch sex and the city and afterwards went to a treny bar to drink cosmopolitans and so she could not turn up for work the next day, you can't say men have more sick days because of football
Funnily enough Bornstubborn, BA had record sickness levels form their cabin crew during ladies day at Ascot.
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Ewan
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Ok I think quite a few people on here have a rather large superiority complex I'm good at maths, and even I wouldn't go as far as to say English lit is easy
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Reblet
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
The level of bigotry of someone is not a value of intelligence. There are unecessary superlativemany bigoted intelligent people.

I do not think you are out performing anyone. I do like your pretty purple writing though

I think it is clear that men do a lot more over-time than women. Do you debate this?

Psychology and English lLt are both soft subjects. I am sorry if this upsets you. I expect you study English Lit?

Science and engineering are very difficult subjects with lots of maths. I believe it was you claiming women are out performing men at university, I think that is a worthless assumption without putting value to the courseunecessary apostrophes men and women are taking.

I am not sure about the number (amount is a not correctly quantitive unless you plan to measure women in grams...) of women in medicine and law. However when I was recently at the hospital I was being treated by lots of male doctors from other countries. Not exactly a good sign huh?

You can pray and hope you don't meet me. Maybe I would give you terrible nightmareanother unecessary apostrophes huh? A horrible person like me? Don't be so dramatic it(unusually you miss a necessary apostrophe!)s embarrasing.
You can say English Lit is a soft subject until the cows come home but until you define why you hold this true it is a pointless suggestion. Are you saying it's easy? (Guess what! It has some of the highest entry standards!) Are you saying it's worthless? (No worse than any non-vocational course is) Are you saying it doesn't benefit society (At least I can put apostrophes in the right places and thus not undermine my very argument that men are "better" than women)

Please give me evidence that men do more over-time? You assume this means they are more productive. Yet this could be cause and effect: i.e. the men need the over-time to complete the work, whilst the women do not...

As you didn't get my big hint about Law and Medicine... There are more female undergraduates in both according to recent statistics, especially Medicine. How does that work with your theorising? Surely it completely demolishes it? Oooh and yet more of your anecdotal evidence! It's so useful and scientifically accurate. I am wrong: more male doctors treated you, there are obviously more male doctors around :rolleyes:

And I'm embarassing myself less than you exposing yourself as a sexist without the ability to articulate their opinions in a meaningful format. Hope your "hard" subject doesn't rely on facts and statistical evidence... Oh wait... I'm sure you'll get used to it...
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Reblet
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(Original post by WithFlyingColours)
Well, I think you'll find it's big powerful companies like BA who have a lot more power over these figures than any of us as they're in the driving seat with regards to who they employ and how much they pay to those employees. If they get their hands stung by one incredibly selfish, unfair woman then they're going to not employ women. That sound logical?

Of course, you would maybe understand if you studied hard, logic based subjects like Engineering
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]You're so right!

BAN MUSLIMS FROM FLYING AIRCRAFT! One once crashed a plane into the twin towers and therefore Airlines should be wary of them... Because all Muslims are the same just like all women are the same.

Just read what you're saying. I am worried all your "hard" subjects may not be teaching you to think logically outside of anecdotal evidence, assumptions and generalisations.
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WithFlyingColours
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#75
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Reblet,

Did you know that economists justify pay by the value of one's output? Just have a think about that.

Funny how the sexist card has been whipped out, how predictable.

Oh dear, guess I'm going to have to add to this.

BAN MUSLIMS FROM FLYING AIRCRAFT! One once crashed a plane into the twin towers and therefore Airlines should be wary of them... Because all Muslims are the same just like all women are the same.
Very poor attempt at making my evidence worthless.

My argument has to do with the very breach of contract that cost the company money in the form of productivity. The optionof being put on a part time conract is a perk designed to attract people to the company and is there to be earned, hence the 7 years rule. You're trying to say that not all women would do the same as the woman I'm talking about. Why should the company care? As far as they're concerned any woman could do this, whereas no man could do this as they don't have the same laws applied to them with regards to looking after young children (this is what the ruling was based on). Would I blame any company for learning from BA's costly mistake of hiring a woman? No.

You see, it's all about risk and cost benefit comparisons. Again, perhaps you can't see this because your imagination is more powerful than your logic.
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Seven_Three
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#76
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If a woman does the same work she should be paid the same and visa versa.
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affinity89
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#77
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
Women can choose what they wish to do with themselves, you cannot claim society or men expect things from women. Women have control of their own bodies and lives and choose what they wish to do.
Pregnancy and babies come about when two people are involved (either directly or indirectly). It is wrong to place the full brunt of responsibility for pregnancy at the hands of a woman - she can't exactly get that way all by herself. Yes, a woman's body is just that and I am very much pro-choice. However, some women, for personal/religious/etc reasons do not agree with abortion. What are they meant to do? Why should they miss out on opportunities just because the condom split/the man didn't put it on properly/one of the various types of contraception (not of which is 100% safe) let them down? Hence, yes women have a choice but men are just as responsible. [That said, I know of more than one case among friends where they have not had a choice because overbearing men have prevented that choice!]

Secondly, what do people expect? If humans are going to continue to inhabit the world, then babies will need to continue to be born. A woman cannot realistically 'pop' a baby out and then be back to work in 10 minutes. Nature didn't make our bodies that way. Maternity leave is a necessary - it is not there to cause problems to businesses. Furthermore, the majority (although thankfully a growing number of men are taking on the role) of parental carers for children are women. If their partner will not give up their career, they are left with little choice as most people wouldn't want to leave a newborn child in the hands of someone else unless they had to.

Thirdly, you said you wouldn't employ women who were young enough to have children. As I've said before, not all women want children and not all women can have children. So a 20-something who is very career driven should be overlooked for a job because biologically she could have children at some point? That sounds like a really logically approach... I think not.

I agree with what some of the other posters have been saying - I'm glad I haven't encountered someone with your views in the work place or in my personal relationships. I imagine you are either completely closed-minded or just plain frustrating. That said, I wonder whether you would actually voice all these strange, unfounded ideas of yours if you were not hidden behind a computer screen...
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affinity89
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(Original post by Seven_Three)
If a woman does the same work she should be paid the same and visa versa.
Exactly.

=D
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Reblet
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
To be honest, i would not care if my wife did not want to work full stop. If she wanted to stay at home and be a housewife i would not mind.

Maternity leave can be very costly to small business. Some business' employ very many women, over ten years they could lose a large sum of money to maternity leave, especially if some of these women are on big salaries.

Women can choose what they wish to do with themselves, you cannot claim society or men expect things from women. Women have control of their own bodies and lives and choose what they wish to do.

Sickness cannot be helped and if there is more men on sick leave i expect that may be a result of doing more manual work. Perhaps the girls went out to watch sex and the city and afterwards went to a trendy bar to drink cosmopolitans and so she could not turn up for work the next day, you can't say men have more sick days because of football.

Infact this article proves the opposite. Men take less sick days http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/412574.stm .Also women take a lot more sick leave than men aswell http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/96616.php http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-days-men.html
Oh you wouldn't mind your wife staying at home looking after the house and kids? Aren't you a new-age man! The point is women WANT to go back to work but need the money to tide them over after having the baby. If maternity leave was abolished then every father would be pursued for money to look after the child after it was born. Paternity suits aplenty! Lots of disgruntled husbands... What fun! Guess what? A baby takes two people... not sure if you've learnt that bit yet... But it's TWO people's responsibility.

And yes you're right there is NO society pressure on women... Go back and read this thread and just count how often male posters either imply or say women should be having and looking after children. I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or really do live in a happy male bubble where you understand nothing of the pressures on women.

My example of sick days was based on the famous FA Cup match where some 9% of the male work-force had time off work. You're referring to REAL sicks days not fake sick days when you say women have more days off there.
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Reblet
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(Original post by WithFlyingColours)
Reblet,

Did you know that economists justify pay by the value of one's output? Just have a think about that.

Funny how the sexist card has been whipped out, how predictable.
An economist in a big corporate company are you then? Pray tell me more about how they calculate wages! Women will take the lower salaries they are offered as companies know they can get away with offering lower wages. It makes sense! How do they guess people's output before they even start at a company? How do you measure output in all businesses?

There is NO proof women have less valuable output than men. Please back up your random theorising.

And you're once again right. Nothing in this thread could be deemed the least bit sexist. :rolleyes:
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