Can I still be a Q.C. Barrister, if I didn't go to a top-notch private school? Watch

chalks
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#61
Report 10 years ago
#61
(Original post by ben_l)
I was half-expecting that - don't be absurd, for all I know you interact professionally with this person on a daily basis
I fail to see what's "absurd" about it. If you don't like what you think has happened, then do something about it i.e. give Simon some information which may enable him to make some appropriately discrete enquiries. No-one is suggesting that you post details of the father and son on this open forum.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#62
Report 10 years ago
#62
Although I don't agree with nepotism in principle, I am on friendly terms with the people involved and would have no desire to see them punished.
0
quote
reply
Simon Myerson QC
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#63
Report 10 years ago
#63
Which, I am bound to say, is an entirely different answer to the first one.

Your lack of trust is a matter for you - although you have a fair way to go before you understand that, for a barrister, integrity really is the most important matter. But what you cannot now do is to moan about something you identified but did not want to do anything to stop.

If your version is accurate, then your statement that although opposed to nepotism 'in principle', you don't want to see anyone punished for it (although punishment was not what I had in mind) is a betrayal of what I stand for as a barrister. The law applies to me, my friends and my enemies equally. If you're going to do your mates a favour then the Bar is the wrong profession.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#64
Report 10 years ago
#64
Who is talking about lack of trust? On the contrary, I would expect you as a responsible member of your profession (and also the Bar Conduct Council) to take further any allegations which I brought to your attention. I don't want this to happen because I'm sure it could cause professional embarrassment for my friend's father and I don't really want to be the cause of that. Therefore I will not be providing you with details. My intention was merely to point out that nepotism still exists at the Bar and it is a factual error to believe otherwise.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#65
Report 10 years ago
#65
By the way, it is not an entirely different answer to the first one - it is precisely your proximity as a member of the same profession which could cause unpleasantness.
0
quote
reply
Simon Myerson QC
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#66
Report 10 years ago
#66
Ben, think about this. Are you really saying that you know that something is contrary to professional rules and you propose to let that go on the grounds of friendship? And you want to be a lawyer? How do you reconcile your stance with what you intend to take up as a vocation?

And are you really saying that you can't PM me because, without further reference to you, I would go off and make trouble for someone? It would take a little more than that to reach any conclusion. I asked for a PM to know whether or not you 'factual statement' was based in reality. No other reason.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#67
Report 10 years ago
#67
Look this is getting tedious now but if you thought about this you would quickly realize that I have precisely nothing to gain from lying. I don't have to reconcile my stance because it is a situation that is extremely unlikely to occur in professional life - and if it did I would simply declare an interest and step aside as the law expects and provides for. I don't claim perfect personal morality.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#68
Report 10 years ago
#68
Morality aside you are being illogical, unless you believe that I am motivated to lie to disprove the abstract principle that the Bar is free from nepotism. I don't really see why you would think that
0
quote
reply
Simon Myerson QC
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#69
Report 10 years ago
#69
Nor am I saying it. I am asking you a question which I regard as important. The answer that it probably won't happen and you can stand aside anyway may satisfy you. That is up to you.

Your main point is based on mistaking mine. I am not suggesting you invented it. I have said - from start to finish - that it is impossible to evaluate your point unless you give some details. 22 years of practice have taught me that most things have more than one possible explanation. Because you didn't want to give details in public, I invited you to do so in private. It is simply a question of what actually happened and whether your attribution of it to nepotism - something which would be a serious breach of professional conduct - is the only explanation or the most likely explanation. It might be - at the moment there is simply no way for anyone to tell.

Please don't take refuge in the 'why would I lie?' line. This is rather more nuanced than that. You are asserting your own assessment as entirely accurate whilst simultaneously refusing details. The accusation is a serious one. A request for details is neither surprising nor insulting. But I agree that we are going nowhere further.

All the best and good luck.
0
quote
reply
TommehR
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#70
Report 10 years ago
#70
Poor Ben...
0
quote
reply
kashif
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#71
Report 10 years ago
#71
ccorse you can

its only tht the law firm or br school will look at your uni.. the better it is the better chance you have

i got 2 e's for alevels and im doing llb law... only cuz i can speak properly and convince otheres... ill probavbly fail llb law.. but ill still becum a barrister
0
quote
reply
Evil_Genius
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#72
Report 10 years ago
#72
This is either remarkably good satire or the most delightfully deluded individual this side of the Neptune.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#73
Report 10 years ago
#73
Honestly TommehR there is no need to pity me, I'm sure Mr Myerson isn't impressed by your sycophancy
0
quote
reply
TommehR
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#74
Report 10 years ago
#74
(Original post by ben_l)
Honestly TommehR there is no need to pity me, I'm sure Mr Myerson isn't impressed by your sycophancy
What sycophancy? Why would I be trying to impress Simon? :confused:

For the record, I wasn't pitying you. I just thought that everybody was unnecessarily jumping on you for a fairly innocuous post on an internet forum.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#75
Report 10 years ago
#75
"22 years in practice have taught me that things have more than one possible explanation."

Yes I suppose that someone whose father is a judge being promised a pupillage by their father is likely just a huge coincidence.

Your stance is contradictory - you suggest both that "nothing will happen" and that what I allude to is "a serious breach of professional conduct", which would presumably require you to act. If you didn't act on this knowledge your personal morality would be as unhealthy as mine apparently is, no?

Asking why I would lie is not irrelevant, it is actually the crux of the issue. It seems that you can't think of a reason.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#76
Report 10 years ago
#76
Apologies TommehR I mistook your post.
0
quote
reply
chalks
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#77
Report 10 years ago
#77
(Original post by ben_l)
"22 years in practice have taught me that things have more than one possible explanation."

Yes I suppose that someone whose father is a judge being promised a pupillage by their father is likely just a huge coincidence.

Your stance is contradictory - you suggest both that "nothing will happen" and that what I allude to is "a serious breach of professional conduct", which would presumably require you to act. If you didn't act on this knowledge your personal morality would be as unhealthy as mine apparently is, no?

Asking why I would lie is not irrelevant, it is actually the crux of the issue. It seems that you can't think of a reason.
I'm getting awfully confused here (which isn't difficult).

Could you just clarify who "promised" what, and who it is you say pulled the strings? Was it the chambers who you think offered the pupillage on the basis they thought they could ingratiate themselves with someone on the bench (as appeared from your original post)? Or was it the judge himself who you think put pressure on the chambers to accept his son (which is a far more serious suggestion)?

I'm just not sure I understand what you think has happened in these particular circumstances.

Leaving that aside, I don't understand your difficulties with Simon's position. You made a serious allegation of nepotism/bias. Simon asked for details, albeit privately. Nothing Simon said has suggested that he would run off to the Bar Council and report the apparently guilty parties. The fact that he becomes aware of alleged professional misconduct does not mean that he is necessarily under a duty to report it. There is no contradiction there, nor does it mean there is an absence of "morality" on his part if he takes no further steps.

I think the difficulty we are having with your allegation is the absence of any background facts. I can understand your reluctance to post names etc - that would be wholly inappropriate. However, all we have to go on at the moment is your broadbrush allegation that someone you know whose father is a judge has got a pupillage and that it seems to have been obtained on a less than meritorious basis. Those circumstances seem surprising to me (and, it appears, Simon M). If you could give us some more information then we might be able to suggest an alternative explanation for what occurred. As indicated above, it's not clear from your posts whether the suggested misconduct is on the part of the chambers, the judge or both. What is it that suggests to you that something unusual has happened, save for the fact that the individual's father is a judge? In other words, what has led you to draw this conclusion? What is it that suggests that this is not simply a case of a son following his father's footsteps? Is it not possible that this applicant was successful at interview because of his knowledge of the profession (gleaned through his father) rather than the father pulling strings?

In the absence of something more concrete, it is entirely unsurprising that someone like Simon would be unwilling to let an allegation like this pass by with the risk that it perpetuates misapprehensions that the Bar is riddled with nepotism etc.
0
quote
reply
TommehR
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#78
Report 10 years ago
#78
(Original post by chalks)
Nothing Simon said has suggested that he would run off to the Bar Council and report the apparently guilty parties. The fact that he becomes aware of alleged professional misconduct does not mean that he is necessarily under a duty to report it.
Well, I recall that Simon has said that he is on the Conduct Committee, suggesting that he takes nepotism very seriously, so one would imagine that even if he does not have a legal duty to report it, he may feel more morally compelled than others to do so. But, of course, I don't know what the Conduct Committee involves, nor do I wish to speak for Simon or speculate too much on his morality. :p:

To be honest, I think this is a rather futile debate. Ben obviously doesn't want to go into any more detail and I think he's well within his rights not to. It is an internet forum, after all...
0
quote
reply
chalks
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#79
Report 10 years ago
#79
(Original post by TommehR)
Well, I recall that Simon has said that he is on the Conduct Committee, suggesting that he takes nepotism very seriously, so one would imagine that even if he does not have a legal duty to report it, he may feel more morally compelled than others to do so. But, of course, I don't know what the Conduct Committee involves, nor do I wish to speak for Simon or speculate too much on his morality. :p:

To be honest, I think this is a rather futile debate. Ben obviously doesn't want to go into any more detail and I think he's well within his rights not to. It is an internet forum, after all...
I think you're probably right that this can't go any further.

I suppose what I get frustrated about is when people make allegations or bald statements which have the capacity to influence people and they then refuse to go into any more detail. My view is that people reading this forum shouldn't be particularly concerned by what Ben has posted about unless he is able to provide some further information.
0
quote
reply
ben_l
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#80
Report 10 years ago
#80
chalks I see what you are asking and why this is frustrating but I fear that being any more specific about the details could have unintended consequences. All I can say is that I'm not lying - as pointed out above I have no reason to - and that there is a direct cause and effect relationship in this case which goes beyond "following in footsteps". However I am sympathetic to your scepticism and so this will end here.
0
quote
reply
X

Reply to thread

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you ever experienced bullying?

Yes (325)
77.2%
No (96)
22.8%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise