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Paypal ordered me to refund over £1,000 for pre-sale Michael Jackson tickets. watch

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    This is the original message i got around 2 hours ago. They even had the cheek to include an AMERICAN phone contact number!

    Because you do not have the tickets to ship, you must agree to refund your
    buyers. Please call PayPal Customer Service at 1-888-221-1161 to provide
    the transaction IDs to be refunded. PayPal will waive all PayPal fees
    involved with this transaction.

    Pre-sale items are items advertised for sale before the seller has control
    or possession of the items. These generally consist of items that are sold
    prior to the item's availability to the general public, or that are sold by
    the seller with the intention of using the payment to go out and purchase
    the item being sold.

    PayPal does permit pre-sales on a limited basis, as long as the seller
    guarantees and reasonably expects that the item will be shipped within 20
    days from the date of purchase, and that he clearly informs the buyer that
    the item is a pre-sale item.

    Because you have not or will not ship the item within the 20 day timeframe,
    you must agree to refund your buyers. PayPal will waive all PayPal fees
    involved with this transaction.

    Sincerely
    PayPal Account Review Department
    PayPal, an eBay Company
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    People are buying his tickets at a higher price because they weren't able to buy them when they were originally sold. Sure, that is partially down to touts, but the majority of tickets sold are bought by actual attendees of the concert, not touts. All the touts do is fill the gap in the market by selling to people that are willing to pay well over the odds for a ticket that they are otherwise unable to purchase. Also, the OP did not set the price he's selling them at (unlike the street touts or website touts); the bidders did.

    OP, just refund your tickets and sell them elsewhere, without involving PayPal.
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    (Original post by RyanT)
    Let us consider two scenarios.

    No touts exist. The tour sells out. Those that have brought the tickets go to see MJ live. Let us make a very tenuous assumption that these consumers have ranked themselves by preferences so those that would have the largest consumer surplus rang up first. Society has successfully allocated these tickets in the most economically efficient fashion.

    Touts buy all the tickets and sell them for the maximum amount they can. The artist utility changes by ZERO.
    The fan loses all of his/her consumer surplus by definition (that is, utility per pound spent is equal on buying the touted tickets to the next best alternative).

    Now - I am failing very strongly in my understanding of where the service here is. Without touts, the tickets are still sold - the service - to consumers based on your very nasty neoclassical economic assumptions.

    With touts, nothing has changed from the perspective of anyone involved. Only some individuals within society has taken advantage of a mechanism failure in order to steal the consumer surplus of others. It also happens to be illegal - lets use a metaphor of what you're describing.

    I am walking down the street. The sunset is beautiful, pretty women are walking past me, relaxing music is being played by street artists walking past me. I'm having a positive experience.

    Now, suddenly a wizard has invented a teleporting device from Zimbabwe. A couple of thugs appear out of thin air. They set up a blockade in the street and charge me my consumer surplus to walk past them or they will shoot me if I try to carry on down the street. So I pay them my consumer surplus. They certinally used their initiative - it may of been illegal but so is ticket touting. Yet according to your logic - this is perfectly acceptable. Do you see what the problem is now?
    Ticket touting is perfectly legal though.
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    And i SPECIFIALLY stated that tickets wouldnt arrive until 10 days prior to the event. it was in bold!!!!
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    (Original post by MissUndastood)
    Forreal:eek: I'm jealoussssss!!
    For real! But you're seeing them anyway :tongue:

    (Original post by ACDC)
    What company does you dad work for? Can he get two more for me
    He has his own small accountancy company. Basically one his clients is the owner of one of the restaurants in the O2, and they get access to a sort of VIP box overlooking the performance (but it's not like you get right up close to the stage) and they can request tickets. One of the only perks to being an accountant haha! I think he was pretty lucky to get the two he did, otherwise
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    Over £1000 for 4 concert tickets
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    I don't agree with touting myself, but the reasons for that has already been brought up many times in this thread. What I don't see having been mentioned yet is why others haven't been ordered to do the same thing when selling pre-sale tickets (be it for MJ or whatever else). I very much doubt that PayPal has staff looking at every listing on eBay for violations of their terms and conditions. It is more than likely that others report such listings, much the same way we can report posts on here. Therefore some will get reported, others will not. Some will get caught, others will not.
    Another reason perhaps why you got caught and others did not may be due to the value of the transaction. You said earlier PayPal were holding the money until positive feedback was received, this is one of PayPal's policies for certain transactions. Due to the size of the transaction, it may have been flagged, therefore requiring PayPal to look into it and discovering the violation of T&C. Others selling tickets for a few hundred probably haven't been automatically flagged, hence not being caught.
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    No one has a right to concert tickets - they are a leisure item, not a necessity.

    OP, contact the buyers directly and ask them how they would like to proceed - they are bound to say they still want the tickets, so get half the money from them now, then meet up when the tickets arrive and exchange the tickets for the rest of the cash. Sorted.
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    (Original post by Anderson8)
    And i SPECIFIALLY stated that tickets wouldnt arrive until 10 days prior to the event. it was in bold!!!!
    But that doesn't override Paypals rules. Irritating as this might be you've been burned and there's nothing you can do about this, you're going to have to refund them.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    But that doesn't override Paypals rules. Irritating as this might be you've been burned and there's nothing you can do about this, you're going to have to refund them.
    this

    it's like saying I murdered him but I gave him ample warning before.
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    (Original post by RyanT)
    You have done nothing wrong?

    You are literally stealing from people - how could it be made any more clear to you?
    No, he is not stealing money from people. In no way is he stealing money. The people buying the tickets are people willing to pay his price. He is (I assume :rolleyes:) not forcing them to give him their money.

    (Original post by RyanT)
    You are providing NO service what so ever. All you are doing is increasing the price other people have to pay for your own gain with NO benefit for them.
    You could be talking about any high street retailer for all anyone knows. This is exactly what retailers do; they buy and sell at a profit. It's called business. Just because an individual is doing it and not a company with a flashy logo and an army of executives in suits doesn't mean it's wrong.

    (Original post by RyanT)
    You are taking advantage of the power you have because the ticket-issuing company could not discriminate between you and a real fan. You used this to your advantage to ensure that a fan that was desperate to go and see him had to pay more then they were supposed to.
    Once again this is what retailers do. They sell items for more than they are worth at face to make a profit for themselves. Are you saying that we should have a market controlled only by big business?

    (Original post by RyanT)
    You've taken money from people.
    You've stolen money from people.
    Show me the part where he forced the buyers purchase the tickets from him.

    (Original post by RyanT)
    You did not provide a service.
    He is selling tickets to a sold out concert. This is a service.

    (Original post by RyanT)
    Taking a handbag off of an old lady "is using my initive" Hey guv! She can't defend it so I can do whatever I want with the money!

    Can does not mean should.
    Don't be petty. Want me to break it down for you? Taking a hand bag from an elderly woman would require seizing it against her will; it would require the use of force. Buyers are buying tickets upon their own will. TC is not employing force to extract money or payment from them.


    (Original post by RyanT)
    I hope you feel like the thief you are, you're a nasty excuse for a human being.
    :rolleyes:
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    i don't understand why everyone is so pissed off. this is how banks make money. if i buy every apple in the world, i alone control its price.
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    I hope you have to pay the lot back.

    Between the 20-day posting requirements and touting being illegal, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

    I hope they take your legs, too.
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    (Original post by tlozoot)
    No, he is not stealing money from people. In no way is he stealing money. The people buying the tickets are people willing to pay his price. He is (I assume :rolleyes:) not forcing them to give him their money.



    You could be talking about any high street retailer for all anyone knows. This is exactly what retailers do; they buy and sell at a profit. It's called business. Just because an individual is doing it and not a company with a flashy logo and an army of executives in suits doesn't mean it's wrong.



    Once again this is what retailers do. They sell items for more than they are worth at face to make a profit for themselves. Are you saying that we should have a market controlled only by big business?



    Show me the part where he forced the buyers purchase the tickets from him.



    He is selling tickets to a sold out concert. This is a service.



    Don't be petty. Want me to break it down for you? Taking a hand bag from an elderly woman would require seizing it against her will; it would require the use of force. Buyers are buying tickets upon their own will. TC is not employing force to extract money or payment from them.




    :rolleyes:
    game, set and match!

    i'd seriously like to see what the other guy says back to that :yep:
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    Call consumer direct 08454040506

    Really good government helpline.

    I'm also selling spare MJ tickets - I ended up with two sets by accident due to the boyfriend and I both purchasing tickets. But I'm probably gonna give them to someone who's a fan for the price I paid. The spare ones aren't amazing seats so I would feel bad asking for some money.

    I've had billy jean stuck in my head for weeks.
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    (Original post by RightSaidJames)
    Ticket touting is perfectly legal though.
    Nope, by most ticket companies, reselling is against the terms of sale.
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    (Original post by TheLouisVuittonDon)
    game, set and match!

    i'd seriously like to see what the other guy says back to that :yep:
    How's this for a response: Ticket touting harms the music industry, is unfair to the consumer (having no choice but to pay over the odds if they want to go to the concert because some ******* decided to make a quick buck) and generally makes you a ****.

    May be strictly permissible by liberal ideals, but it still makes you an ********.

    Also, retailers are sold produce with an agreement that they will be resold at a higher price. Touts? No:

    By ordering you agree that the tickets are for the personal use of you and your party only, and will not be resold or transferred. Any resale or attempt to resell the tickets at a price higher than purchased will result in your orders being cancelled without prior notification.
    Sauce: http://www.seetickets.com/see/content_terms.asp
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    (Original post by Planto)
    Nope, by most ticket companies, reselling is against the terms of sale.
    Breaking the terms of sale makes the contract voidable (maybe not even that depending on many conditions) - maybe the terms don't even apply in the first place etc. Just cos the big company says so doesn't make it true.

    It is not illegal to do so.
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    (Original post by Planto)
    Nope, by most ticket companies, reselling is against the terms of sale.
    The same sort of notice is placed on many books, CDs and DVDs (well, I certainly remember them saying things like "not for resale", but I can't seem to find it on any of the current things I own, maybe the practice has been phased out), but this does not stop second hand shops from selling them. Also, just because something is against the terms of sale, it does not mean it is illegal.

    And it has absolutely no effect on the music industry in monetary terms; everyone still gets their money, right? The only difference is that the end customer pays more, by his own choosing, due to the existence of a middleman. The OP is providing a service, because the eventual buyer did not have the means to queue up in London, or to refresh an overloaded website for hours on end. Also, he does not set the price, the bidders do.
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    (Original post by Planto)
    How's this for a response: Ticket touting harms the music industry, is unfair to the consumer (having no choice but to pay over the odds if they want to go to the concert because some ******* decided to make a quick buck) and generally makes you a ****.

    May be strictly permissible by liberal ideals, but it still makes you an ********.

    Also, retailers are sold produce with an agreement that they will be resold at a higher price. Touts? No:



    Sauce: http://www.seetickets.com/see/content_terms.asp
    Like i said before.. 'killing the music industry' is a ******** argument. Its what the record labels use.. 'poor artist - losing money blah blah' .. all ********, they are the *******s ripping the artist off for his work in the first place using extorotionate promotion fees etc.

    How is it even logical to say that they have no choice but to pay the higher fees.. of course they do - they can abstain from purchasing them at all.

    This is stupid.. I've come back after an hour and people are still spouting the same crap.
 
 
 
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