Communism or Democratism? Watch

Andy the Anarchist
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Chenla)
Thank you, I am well aware of whose idea the Vanguard is.

And I never claimed it was? What is this strawman nonsense?! I was clearly talking about actual attempted communism, which you will find has come overwhelmingly in one of two flavours - Marxist-Leninist and Maoist.
And prior to widespread universal suffrage in the 20th century, the main form of actual attempted democracy was in Ancient Greece amongst a male leisure class that essentially lived off a slave economy.

The fact that Maoism and Leninism have totalitarian leanings invalidates them, rather than communist ideas in general, given that many other attempted communist experiments have either been forcibly suppressed (Spain in the 1930's, Chile in the 1970's) or have not been put into practice yet.

Obviously they need to be put into practice before they can be shown to work or not work, but the fact that a few dominant (and I would argue, cynically manipulated) versions did not work does not invalidate the whole thing.
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epitaph for my heart
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Gabriela)
What do you think and why? We seem to live in a not so good world today- paying high taxes, working hard and not getting most out of life (well, some people do but that's another story).

My point is that my grandparents lived in much different ages when communism ruled, then came along the propaganda of how that was a bad way of living when they had everything they wanted and lived in a superb way- satisfactory salaries, family holidays twice a year, weekend breaks etc.

Then a new parliament was elected and the so called democrats started changing the world... Do you think our lives are better today, or do you think they could be better? Who would you go for democrats or communists?

P.S. i am not trying to upset someone with what i have said. they are just things that i have heard when talking to my parents and grandparents.
democracy all the way communism isn't even remotely a viable ideal for a person with power to hold

although I have to say, communists often have a far better grasp of what democracy means than democrats. They're a clever bunch
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shamrock92
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Bagration)
Hey, I don't believe in it.
No-one truly believes in it; that's the point.
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Bagration
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#64
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#64
(Original post by shamrock92)
No-one truly believes in it; that's the point.
A power structure is a system to decide who can decide, and for how long their decision stands, and who can be forced to comply with their decision.

A welfare bureau is a power structure.

A health bureau is a power structure.

An education bureau is a power structure.

A command economy is a power structure.

There are people who believe in these things.
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jumblebumble
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#65
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#65
(Original post by uthred50)
Hitler wasn't communist..
National Socialist German Workers’ Party
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bishbash72
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#66
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#66
(Original post by steed999)
no it is not. Do you realise the amount of food we throw away can feed the world 3 times over? Communism when applied correctly is the best way forward for the world and will eventually happen!
Haha. I assume by 'applied correctly' you mean not in any way it has ever been applied before in history.

'Perfect' communism seems to be like the end of the rainbow. Everyone's searching for it, and we're told it exists, yet nobody's ever seen it.
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Democracy
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Bagration)
Hey, I don't believe in it.

I didn't say you couldn't - only that you couldn't disagree with a real life example where what I agree with has not been implemented if you're going to follow the "USSR wasn't Communist" model of debate.
Well I haven't...I defy you to find a post of mine saying "libertarian economics doesn't work because of so and so libertarian country". I am more than aware that your ideal society/economic theory hasn't been tried either. I can still disagree with it though :tongue:
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shamrock92
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#68
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#68
(Original post by jumblebumble)
National Socialist German Workers’ Party
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
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Bagration
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Democracy)
Well I haven't...I defy you to find a post of mine saying "libertarian economics doesn't work because of so and so libertarian country".
If I had the time I might find a post of yours saying that my ideas don't work because of the current credit crunch - or the same thing said by a similar socialist (that was an accusation leveled across the board, not just at you) - but I CBA. If you notice, it has been done on this thread. False accusations and strawmen are employed to a great degree by both the left and the right, not just the right.
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kai4321
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Democracy)
Well I was really only taking umbrage to the fact that you'd said communism had been tried and failed. It hasn't.
If you believe that communism has never been tried (it has, just wasn't set out in the way it was meant to) then why bother having this debate? We're debating something that is present and real against an idea - what's the point of that? We all know that ideas are all very simple until it comes to putting them into practise.
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Bateman
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#71
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#71
Since when was it democracy vs. communism? It's capitalism vs. communism.
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shamrock92
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Bagration)
A power structure is a system to decide who can decide, and for how long their decision stands, and who can be forced to comply with their decision.

A welfare bureau is a power structure.

A health bureau is a power structure.

An education bureau is a power structure.

A command economy is a power structure.

There are people who believe in these things.
Ok: no-one truly believes that subordinating the population to the whims of a ruling class is the most conducive route to achieving equality. Certainly, that wasn't what was on Lenin's mind, unless he was criminally stupid.
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kai4321
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#73
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#73
(Original post by jumblebumble)
National Socialist German Workers’ Party
He put pretty much EVERY name he could think of to get supporters. He would have probably even put "communist" in the name too if he didn't hate them so much.
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Andy the Anarchist
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#74
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#74
(Original post by jumblebumble)
National Socialist German Workers’ Party
The Democratic Republic of the Congo

East Germany, otherwise known as the German Democratic Republic

Asserting that a state has a particular quality doesn't mean that it has it de facto
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Bagration
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#75
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#75
(Original post by shamrock92)
Ok: no-one truly believes that subordinating the population to the whims of a ruling class is the most conducive route to achieving equality. Certainly, that wasn't what was on Lenin's mind, unless he was criminally stupid.
No famous Socialists might have - but I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about your rank and file left wing ideologue.
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shamrock92
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#76
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#76
(Original post by kai4321)
If you believe that communism has never been tried (it has, just wasn't set out in the way it was meant to) then why bother having this debate? We're debating something that is present and real against an idea - what's the point of that? We all know that ideas are all very simple until it comes to putting them into practise.
Examples plz
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bishbash72
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#77
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#77
(Original post by riz1234)
i maybe 17 but ive already figured that for the best part of the next 30years i'll probably have a mortgage, be living in an avergae house, driving a small car and stuck in a fairly dead end role while the fat cats of the capitalist system (bourgeoisie) sit at the top on their executive salaries. Communism, following closely the principles laid out by Karl Marx would produce a much fairer society. Lenin unfortunately didnt adhere strictly to Marx's teachings.
Marx never taught what 'should' happen. He taught what 'would' happen. He saw it as inevitable. He was very, very wrong.
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shamrock92
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#78
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#78
(Original post by Bagration)
No famous Socialists might have - but I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about your rank and file left wing ideologue.
No-one on here is asserting that, either. :confused:
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bishbash72
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#79
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#79
(Original post by shamrock92)
Ok: no-one truly believes that subordinating the population to the whims of a ruling class is the most conducive route to achieving equality. Certainly, that wasn't what was on Lenin's mind, unless he was criminally stupid.
Actually it was. He acknowledged that Russia had no real working class and so his 'dictatorship of the proletariat' should lead Russia forward, ignoring the 90%+ of the population who were peasants.
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Democracy
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#80
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#80
(Original post by Bagration)
If I had the time I might find a post of yours saying that my ideas don't work because of the current credit crunch - or the same thing said by a similar socialist (that was an accusation leveled across the board, not just at you) - but I CBA. If you notice, it has been done on this thread. False accusations and strawmen are employed to a great degree by both the left and the right, not just the right.
What? In the rare times I've discussed the credit crunch (rare because I find it terrifically boring), I've maintained it's the fault of various risk taking bankers. Not of classical liberalism, which is essentially an untested system of economics. However, I will argue that it might have been alleviated with more regulation. But if I carry on down that track I might as well go the whole hog and admit it wouldn't have happened under a decent democratic socialist system :wink2:
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