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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    you dont think islam has changed its doctrine to keep up with times? why do you think hadith writers had a job for 250 years after the quran was written ? or that islam still needs fatwas and decrees from thousands of sheikhs clreics and muftis?


    it is not the point that faiths have to adapt, but in the case of islam, a vocal islamist group still has the power to indoctrinate over political matters, whereas CoE in general does not
    Extremists in any group, whether it be political, social or religious, have the power to indoctrinate over political matters, the difference between CoE and the places where the islamists control the policy is the governments themselves and their relationships to the extremist groups.
    Hamas is very much tied in with the extremist groups (partly through being one) whereas the PLO is not, and is rather reasonable. [keeping it on topic]
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    The only one making fool of yourself is you. There has been plenty of discussion about human right abuses about Syria, coming from our very own government which for a while considered a military involvement in Syria, and only decided against that as with our economy being **** and UK being involved in many military conflict already simply couldn't afford to.
    Ohhh "discussing" you say...wow, maybe even an angry letter?

    I'm talking about the rag-tag bunch of hypocrites we see marching by the thousands denouncing Israel, when Assad and other players in Syria kill that many people with a couple of barrel bombs.

    So I ask you again...

    Where was 'stop the war' coalition with regards to Syria? where are the thousands of protesters marching? over 3 years and 200,000 dead, yet nowhere to be seen.

    Where are the boycott campaigns against Syria?

    Where are those 'peace flotillas' LOL to Syria?

    Around 20+ times as many Arabs have died in Syria in 3 years, than have died against Israel in 45+ years. Think about that for a minute.

    Yes, there is such thing as disproportionate, and of you think that UK was not critiqued about the massive civilian casualties, or that UK soldiers that have breached human rights whilst in Afghanistan were not called into account, you must have been living under a rock.
    I'm sorry. The BBC for example has had the Gaza situation from day 1 (when I say Day 1...I mean Day1 of Israel's retaliation, not Day 1 of Gaza's bombardment of Israel every day for 3 weeks prior to retaliation:rolleyes:) as the main headline news.

    The BBC counts every death and takes Hamas health ministry figures as being accurate. They make no distinction between terrorists and civilians. Death tolls are given as absolute.

    In Ukraine more people have died. Why is that not headline news. Why do they talk about 'rebel' deaths and 'civilian' deaths? they manage to differentiate there, but not Gaza?

    The disproportion here is the coverage Israel gets.


    Please don't conflate Talibans who UK forces were fighting, with ordinary Afghans.
    LOL, the Taliban are ordinary Afghans.


    I'll tell you what Mori, I'll do you a deal. I have connections to the Israeli military.

    I will propose a new military doctrine of 'proportionality' called The 'AutVinceriAutMori doctrine'. This will be based on your idea of proportionality.

    Now I assume you would agree with me that mirroring someone's actions is as proportional as one can be, correct?

    So this is my suggestion.

    For every rocket indiscriminately fired from Gaza into Israel - Israel responds by firing the same unguided rocket, with the same payload as the 'palestinian' rocket.

    So that would mean that around 150 rockets per day would land indiscriminately on Gaza.

    So no guidance system & no targeting.

    That is pure proportionality and I think Israel should adopt this tactic. What say you?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Extremists in any group, whether it be political, social or religious, have the power to indoctrinate over political matters, the difference between CoE and the places where the islamists control the policy is the governments themselves and their relationships to the extremist groups.
    Hamas is very much tied in with the extremist groups (partly through being one) whereas the PLO is not, and is rather reasonable. [keeping it on topic]
    no the difference is CoE extremists have little or no power of the minds of others on any significant political matters. (in the 16th century britain that may have been different, but thankfully we have all evolved here )
    islamists , with use of islamic doctrine, control the minds of muslims accross the globe on such matters- this is evident on the issue of palestine, which as ive explained many times is not, in reality as important as a host of other political concerns, but jam some contrived islamic jargon to it and muslims will react in some Pavlovian manner ( illustrated by fact hamas is real boss in palestine not plo) Fear and ignorance is required for islamists to be successful
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    No I'm saying the 'palestinian' indiscriminate rocket attacks have killed an Arab.
    I'm confused. So they are Israeli "indiscriminate rocket attacks"?
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Wow, they look like fascists.

    Quite suitable really given who they support.

    No march for Syria then eh? 200,000 killed.
    The year 2013 must have passed you by. This is entirely plausible given the fact that there were no Israeli full scale war against the Palestinians for you to defend. But hey, here's some pictures to jog your memory:

    Spoiler:
    Show




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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Ohhh "discussing" you say...wow, maybe even an angry letter?

    I'm talking about the rag-tag bunch of hypocrites we see marching by the thousands denouncing Israel, when Assad and other players in Syria kill that many people with a couple of barrel bombs.

    So I ask you again...

    Where was 'stop the war' coalition with regards to Syria? where are the thousands of protesters marching? over 3 years and 200,000 dead, yet nowhere to be seen.

    Where are the boycott campaigns against Syria?

    Where are those 'peace flotillas' LOL to Syria?

    Around 20+ times as many Arabs have died in Syria in 3 years, than have died against Israel in 45+ years. Think about that for a minute.
    Tu Quoque



    I'm sorry. The BBC for example has had the Gaza situation from day 1 (when I say Day 1...I mean Day1 of Israel's retaliation, not Day 1 of Gaza's bombardment of Israel every day for 3 weeks prior to retaliation:rolleyes:) as the main headline news.
    I tell you what, you clearly haven't looked for the last few days

    The BBC counts every death and takes Hamas health ministry figures as being accurate.
    By prefacing it with words to the effect of "is believed to be"
    They make no distinction between terrorists and civilians. Death tolls are given as absolute.
    By telling us, according to the UN, approximately what proportion have been civilian? Doesn't sound like absolutes to me.

    In Ukraine more people have died. Why is that not headline news.
    Because it's got a lower information value (which you probably don't understand). When a trivial conflict thousands of miles away has been going on for some time people lose interest, more deaths are expected and thus the information value is low, you stop making it headline news, it might get a small article in a paper. It doesn't then surface on the news until something unexpected (and thus with a high information value) happens and then it springs back onto the headlines again until it too becomes trivial.

    Why do they talk about 'rebel' deaths and 'civilian' deaths? they manage to differentiate there, but not Gaza?
    they differentiate in both, as has already been explained.

    The disproportion here is the coverage Israel gets.
    The disproportionate use of force is being demonstrated by Israel. And, as explained before, the conflict in Israel currently has a higher information value than most of the happenings in Ukraine.


    LOL, the Taliban are ordinary Afghans.
    Wut?

    I'll tell you what Mori, I'll do you a deal. I have connections to the Israeli military.
    And I know the Queen.

    I will propose a new military doctrine of 'proportionality' called The 'AutVinceriAutMori doctrine'. This will be based on your idea of proportionality.

    Now I assume you would agree with me that mirroring someone's actions is as proportional as one can be, correct?

    So this is my suggestion.

    For every rocket indiscriminately fired from Gaza into Israel - Israel responds by firing the same unguided rocket, with the same payload as the 'palestinian' rocket.

    So that would mean that around 150 rockets per day would land indiscriminately on Gaza.

    So no guidance system & no targeting.

    That is pure proportionality and I think Israel should adopt this tactic. What say you?
    Would you also give Gaza Iron dome, or would you remove Israel's? Would you also widen Gaza's boarders so as to increase the amount of empty land so the proportions of urban to rural land in Gaza is the same as Israel's?
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no the difference is CoE extremists have little or no power of the minds of others on any significant political matters. (in the 16th century britain that may have been different, but thankfully we have all evolved here )
    They haven't been completely removed, remind me again how many members of the house of peers are Bishops in the CoE?

    islamists , with use of islamic doctrine, control the minds of muslims accross the globe on such matters- this is evident on the issue of palestine, which as ive explained many times is not, in reality as important as a host of other political concerns, but jam some contrived islamic jargon to it and muslims will react in some Pavlovian manner ( illustrated by fact hamas is real boss in palestine not plo) Fear and ignorance is required for islamists to be successful
    And herein lies the solution.
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)
    You might oppose settlement expansion, but it's still ongoing. And it's a part of the problem in this conflict, because it's one of many violations of international law that Israel participates in. The Gaza Strip itself is heavily blockaded from both sides, and yes, Egypt is also complicit in the blockade, it's entire population is between the rock and a hard place, and they simply have nowhere to go- where are they supposed to evacuate? What exactly re they supposed to build bomb shelters with?

    P.S My reference to settlements was in reply to your question about whether Jews have a right to Israel, though I stand by my opinion that it has a role in current crisis.
    Settlement expansion is ongoing in the West Bank, and I don't deny the role that has to play in the conflict there, although I do deny that it is the root cause of the conflict.

    Settlement expansion is not ongoing in Gaza (by which I mean, it was completely reversed in 2005), and the blockade has something to do with the fact that Gaza is run by fascists who want to destroy Israel. If it were run by peaceful democrats who wanted to live alongside Israel, there would be no blockade.

    Obviously Gazans are suffering, but you have to look at why they are suffering, and look for actual answers.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Ohhh "discussing" you say...wow, maybe even an angry letter?

    I'm talking about the rag-tag bunch of hypocrites we see marching by the thousands denouncing Israel, when Assad and other players in Syria kill that many people with a couple of barrel bombs.

    So I ask you again...

    Where was 'stop the war' coalition with regards to Syria? where are the thousands of protesters marching? over 3 years and 200,000 dead, yet nowhere to be seen.

    Where are the boycott campaigns against Syria?

    Where are those 'peace flotillas' LOL to Syria?
    There does not need to be a population boycott, there are already sanctions against Syria by EU and US, if the same applied to Israel there would not need to be a boycott. S



    I'll tell you what Mori, I'll do you a deal. I have connections to the Israeli military.

    I will propose a new military doctrine of 'proportionality' called The 'AutVinceriAutMori doctrine'. This will be based on your idea of proportionality.

    Now I assume you would agree with me that mirroring someone's actions is as proportional as one can be, correct?

    So this is my suggestion.

    For every rocket indiscriminately fired from Gaza into Israel - Israel responds by firing the same unguided rocket, with the same payload as the 'palestinian' rocket.

    So that would mean that around 150 rockets per day would land indiscriminately on Gaza.

    So no guidance system & no targeting.

    That is pure proportionality and I think Israel should adopt this tactic. What say you? [/QUOTE]

    The irony being it would kill less Palestinians, but better still go get gassed, that way Palestinians can get their land back and there would be no war either.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    They haven't been completely removed, remind me again how many members of the house of peers are Bishops in the CoE?


    And herein lies the solution.
    and what power do you think that gives them exactly?


    what solution- ignorance is not eradicated overnight. most of the people influenced by islamists know nothing else in their l8ives but their doctrine. look at all the ignorance on this thread alone, many people were not even aware that judaism pre-dated islam in Levant
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I have connections to the Israeli military.
    You have "connections" to the Israeli military? That's handy as there seems to be an equivalent of a D-Notice on the reporting of Israeli deaths, civilians or otherwise.

    a) Could you confirm whether 11 Israeli soldiers were killed in Israel in the last couple of days as HAMAS claims?

    EDIT: That figure is now at 15 IDF soldiers...
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I shall build on my previous statements, on top of stating that it isn't anything particularly special, or complex, I shall add this: just because an individual finds something complex doesn't mean it is, for instance, some people find the concept that 22=4 complex, but it hardly is.

    As for the point that "very few such systems exist", well, debatably wrong again. I propose you look at this article and educate yourself on at least one thing.
    Similar systems have been in development since the 50s, although the first successful one didn't start development until 1971, and have existed since not long after that.
    Three systems cuerrently in use are capable of taking out ICBMs (The Americans have one, Russians have one, third it doesn't actually specify, but may be referring to a planned one in Europe), but the Americans had a system used in parts iof '75 and '76
    Primitive systems using Radar and a 90mm AA gun were 95% effective vs V1s in WWII, although completely ineffective against V2s due to their ballistic trajectory.
    As for current use:

    • USA has a few, one of which was 100% effective in Iraq.
    • Russia, along with it's main Moscow ICBM defence capable system, has several others
    • China has a few (and is still developing more)
    • UK/France/Italy jointly developed a family of weapons
    • Since 1998 when North Korea demonstrated its capabilities with Taepodong-1 it has been developing and possibly has now installed (old information) its own system
    • India has a system
    • Israel currently have 2 and are developing David's Sling
    • Taiwan is developing


    Not that rare, and given that the USA has had similar (and in many ways more useful) systems over 3 decades before the Israelis I'm pretty sure that "too difficult" line is a total lie.
    Iron Dome does not deal with ICBM's. Israel has ARROW for that.

    Iron Dome deals with short to medium-range rockets and has a very short window to do so. Sometimes under 10 seconds from detection, launch and intercept BEFORE the rocket's impact.

    It's duel-system. It can take down rockets, some mortars (depending on range) artillery shells, helicopters, drones and planes up to 32,000ft. The only system in the world that can perform all these tasks.

    It is an exceedingly sophisticated bit of kit which very few systems can compete with.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    and what power do you think that gives them exactly?
    Because should they vote based upon religious doctrine rather than honest personal view it can change the result of a vote?

    what solution- ignorance is not eradicated overnight. most of the people influenced by islamists know nothing else
    Those that are irreparably influenced by Islamists are the minority, change the attitude of the masses and through no democratic system can the extremists win, and the extremists alienate themselves from the masses.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Iron Dome does not deal with ICBM's. Israel has ARROW for that.

    Iron Dome deals with short to medium-range rockets and has a very short window to do so. Sometimes under 10 seconds from detection, launch and intercept BEFORE the rocket's impact.
    You say "before" as if other systems do it "after". If it doesn't do it before impact it has failed.

    It's duel-system. It can take down rockets, some mortars (depending on range) artillery shells, helicopters, drones and planes up to 32,000ft. The only system in the world that can perform all these tasks.
    Along with most other systems, they are all SAMs, which means that in theory they can all take out aircraft, check. Their specific design is for rockets, check. If the mortars and shells are detectable by the detection system, check. For example, the Aster missile family, nothing is specified for mortar/artillery countering ability, however one would assume that the detection systems are capable of detecting them and thus countering.

    It's also worth noting that, despite being such a new system, Iron Dome has a very short range, much older systems substantially out class it.

    It is an exceedingly sophisticated bit of kit which very few systems can compete with.
    You still haven't justified how it's complex. It's negligibly more complex than other systems, if at all, which themselves aren't complex. As I have already done, it's easy enough to draw out a very simple flow chart that fully explains what it does and how it does it (bar specific algorithms). If being able to do a few things makes something sophisticated then my watch is highly sophisticated.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Because should they vote based upon religious doctrine rather than honest personal view it can change the result of a vote?
    i dont think you fully understand the power ( or comparative lack of) of a peer compared to the house of commons. besides which the power of the islamist is to be able to indoctrinate millions of people, in support of sometimes to violent terrorist acts. many muslims (inc on this thread) ignore or overlook what hamas are doing and have been doing in palestine, simply on the basis that their actins are supported by islamists. it is another form of ignorance

    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Those that are irreparably influenced by Islamists are the minority, change the attitude of the masses and through no democratic system can the extremists win, and the extremists alienate themselves from the masses.
    again i dont think you understand how islamic doctrine works - for most adherent muslims the word of doctrine such as quotes from quran hadith etc, superceeds any 'democratic system' . this has been the case for many centuries and islamists recognise the power of islamic slogans etc to control attitudes in the islamic world - you can argue this is more prevalent int he poorly educated parts of the islamic world, but in reality that is the majority.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i dont think you fully understand the power ( or comparative lack of) of a peer compared to the house of commons. besides which the power of the islamist is to be able to indoctrinate millions of people, in support of sometimes to violent terrorist acts. many muslims ingore or overlook what hamas are doing and have been doing in palestine, simply on the basis that their actins are supported by islamists.
    Any religion has that power, especially if those you are indoctrinating are having their ability to think freely suppressed in some way

    again i dont think you understand how islamic doctrine works - for most adherent muslims the word of doctrine such as quotes from quran hadith etc, superceeds any 'democratic system' . this has been the case for many centuries and islamists recognise the power of islamic slogans etc to control attitudes in the islamic world - you can argue this is more prevalent int he poorly educated parts of the islamic world, but in reality that is the majority.
    Then the emphasis should be on promoting education and critical thinking, I wonder how much that has to do with the fall in the influence of the Church in Europe.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Settlement expansion is ongoing in the West Bank,
    This is a bit of a red herring used by Israel's detractors.

    First of all, settlements are not the cause of conflict because the Arabs were attacking Israel before a single settlement was built.

    Secondly, Israel has not built any new settlements since the 90's. The homes being built are being built within the boundaries of existing settlements.

    So it's not like when a few settlement buildings go up, that means 'palestinians' have lost their homes.

    Thirdly, and this might come as s surprise to some - the actual settlements physically take up about 2% of West Bank land.

    'palestinians' have control of around 39% of it - partly complete control in some areas and partly joint control with Israel in others.

    55% of 'palestinians' live under complete 'palestinian' rule. A further 41% live under 'palestinian' civil control and Israeli security control. Only 4% live under full Israeli control.

    There is a lot of empty space in Judea & Samaria (West Bank) relative to its size.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Any religion has that power, especially if those you are indoctrinating are having their ability to think freely suppressed in some way


    Then the emphasis should be on promoting education and critical thinking, I wonder how much that has to do with the fall in the influence of the Church in Europe.
    of course freedom to think is supressed in this case anyway,
    that is the point of indoctrination. islams basic start point is that its doctrine is infallible - so if an islamist can make an islamic argument why palestine should no be handed to jews , how can any muslim argue?

    and of course logic and thought has led to fall in power in europe of the Church, in medieval times used to burn women as 'witches' and regard any other religion as bad, including categorising 'pagan sciences' such as those of the greeks and romans as bad - till we had the Renaissance and then later separation of goverance from the Church . incidentally before this enlightenment , europeans assumed they had the right to jerusalem, and crusades killed many muslims for the right. Dont really see that view point any different to the islamist one today, seeing as islam, intellectually speaking has not been through the same period of enlightenment when it comes separating islam from politcial matters - hence why there is this stand off politically speaking , in the middle east
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    This is a bit of a red herring used by Israel's detractors.

    First of all, settlements are not the cause of conflict because the Arabs were attacking Israel before a single settlement was built.

    Secondly, Israel has not built any new settlements since the 90's. The homes being built are being built within the boundaries of existing settlements.

    So it's not like when a few settlement buildings go up, that means 'palestinians' have lost their homes.

    Thirdly, and this might come as s surprise to some - the actual settlements physically take up about 2% of West Bank land.

    'palestinians' have control of around 39% of it - partly complete control in some areas and partly joint control with Israel in others.

    55% of 'palestinians' live under complete 'palestinian' rule. A further 41% live under 'palestinian' civil control and Israeli security control. Only 4% live under full Israeli control.

    There is a lot of empty space in Judea & Samaria (West Bank) relative to its size.
    I agree that the settlements are not the root cause of the conflict (and said so in the post you quoted). Of course, the root cause of the conflict is that the Palestinian resistance movement cares more about the nakba than democracy. But some settlers are absolute criminals who treat the Arabs like ****. There's no denying that.
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    A startling admission purporting to be from the IDF:

 
 
 
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