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Petition calling for 2nd Referendum - and write to your MP watch

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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Obviously the first referendum was just do you want to leave in PRINCIPLE

    The second will be do you want to leave with the REALITY on offer...
    :rofl:
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    (Original post by jonathanemptage)
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    You are truly flogging a dead horse. Both main parties have now agreed that there is no way back from the decision, and even Labour's shadow chancellor has stated that freedom of movement is now a no-no. Both Labour and the Conseratives would be wiped out at the next general election if they ignore the result, and they know it.
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    Why don't people just accept that the leave campaign won. How stupid do we look to the EU and the rest of the world if one minute we're going "yeah lets leave we don't need no EU" and like a week later 4 million people are saying "actually we've changed our mind". People need to take referendums more seriously and be aware of the consequences.
    P.S The 4 million signatures is very small compared with the over 30 million who voted in the actual referendum.
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    (Original post by Crb822)
    Why don't people just accept that the leave campaign won. How stupid do we look to the EU and the rest of the world if one minute we're going "yeah lets leave we don't need no EU" and like a week later 4 million people are saying "actually we've changed our mind". People need to take referendums more seriously and be aware of the consequences.
    P.S The 4 million signatures is very small compared with the over 30 million who voted in the actual referendum.
    37.4% of the electorate said "yeah lets leave we don't need no EU", and some of them are having second thoughts.

    PS. This petition is 5x larger than any previous petition.

    It's nearly 4x the population of Birmingham and it's more than the population of Wales.

    By any assessment it's quite a significant event. Especially given the problems people had in the early days actually accessing the petition to sign it.

    Very small = something other than this...
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    (Original post by jneill)
    It's 5x larger than any previous petition.

    It's nearly 4x the population of Birmingham and it's more than the population of Wales.

    By any assessment it's quite a significant event. Especially given the problems people had in the early days actually accessing the petition to sign it.

    Very small = something other than this...
    You have to be living in a dream world if you think the government will overturn a referendum, because that's not a democracy, that would be a dictatorship in disguise as a democracy...

    Where is the line drawn? "As the ruling party, we don't like that the opposition won, so let's redo the general election".

    The petition is entirely pathetic and shows how millennials are unable to accept opinions that contrast their own.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    You have to be living in a dream world if you think the government will overturn a referendum, because that's not a democracy, that would be a dictatorship in disguise as a democracy...

    Where is the line drawn? "As the ruling party, we don't like that the opposition won, so let's redo the general election".

    The petition is entirely pathetic and shows how millennials are unable to accept opinions that contrast their own.
    How do you know it's only millennials signing the petition?

    And funny you should view "overturning" a referendum as "not a democracy, that would be a dictatorship in disguise as a democracy..."

    Who said this? “the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues
    Spoiler:
    Show
    It was Margaret Thatcher, and it's from an earlier quote by Clement Attlee:

    Clement Attlee, Spring 1945: "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism.”

    And saying it forced Churchill into calling a General Election, that he lost.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ticism-history
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    (Original post by jneill)
    37.4% of the electorate said "yeah lets leave we don't need no EU", and some of them are having second thoughts.

    PS. This petition is 5x larger than any previous petition.

    It's nearly 4x the population of Birmingham and it's more than the population of Wales.

    By any assessment it's quite a significant event. Especially given the problems people had in the early days actually accessing the petition to sign it.

    Very small = something other than this...
    Still in my opinion 4 million is nowhere near large enough to even consider a second referendum. It isn't very democratic to host a second referndum just because people have suddenly decided to change their minds. It isn't fair on the people who did vote to leave which may now have done it all for nothing.
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    (Original post by Crb822)
    Still in my opinion 4 million is nowhere near large enough to even consider a second referendum. It isn't very democratic to host a second referndum just because people have suddenly decided to change their minds. It isn't fair on the people who did vote to leave which may now have done it all for nothing.
    It's not so much that people have changed their minds, although many have.

    It's because it's so close (only just over a third of the electorate actually voted in support of it), and it was decided with frankly a dearth of necessary information on both sides but particularly on the Leave side.

    Have a read of this (it's quite long but that, as you will read, is the point...):

    https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brex...on-67532113a7c
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    (Original post by jneill)
    It's not so much that people have changed their minds, although many have.

    It's because it's so close (only just over a third of the electorate actually voted in support of it), and it was decided with frankly a dearth of necessary information on both sides but particularly on the Leave side.

    Have a read of this (it's quite long but that, as you will read, is the point...):

    https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brex...on-67532113a7c
    Do you see yourself still pushing for a second referendum in a years time?
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    (Original post by physicsphysics91)
    Do you see yourself still pushing for a second referendum in a years time?
    There won't be a 2nd Referendum any time soon, but I do think a 2nd Referendum (or GE) is a likely outcome at the end of the Article 50 negotiations.
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    Well which is it? Do we want a participatory democracy or a quiescent one? nGiven the endless laments in recent years about the public's waning involvement in politics, the former is what we always seemed to desire. And last week we got it. Seldom has a nation immersed itself so thoroughly in political argument. In homes, offices, shops and pubs, politics was the talking point. Voters accustomed to feeling that their vote made no difference felt that this time, it would. In housing estates across the land, in Stoke-on-Trent - where less than 50^% bothered to vote in the last election - turnout was over 65%.
    But here's the rub. If citizen involvement is a key virtue of the democratic system, submission to the majority verdict is another. It's a system aimed at neutralising that most toxic of political emotions, Sore Loser Syndrome (SLS). And the chicness of doing that are far greater if you're voting for a political party rather than a political outcome. Parties, after all, make a range of obscure promises, so even if your own party loses you can still hope the winners will enact some of what you want. By contrast, a plebiscite offers voters a stark choice over a single outcome - a fine way of stimulating citizen participation but a lousy way of suppressing SLS. We can see that only too clearly from the reaction of last week's sore loses (the Lib Dems among them) who now seek to reverse the majority decision. Insanity. If they're sore at losing, just imagine the hysterical SLS of the majority robbed of victory. It's almost a recipe for civil war. How very stupid clever people can be - Jeremy O'Grady
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    Well which is it? Do we want a participatory democracy or a quiescent one? nGiven the endless laments in recent years about the public's waning involvement in politics, the former is what we always seemed to desire. And last week we got it. Seldom has a nation immersed itself so thoroughly in political argument. In homes, offices, shops and pubs, politics was the talking point. Voters accustomed to feeling that their vote made no difference felt that this time, it would. In housing estates across the land, in Stoke-on-Trent - where less than 50^% bothered to vote in the last election - turnout was over 65%.
    But here's the rub. If citizen involvement is a key virtue of the democratic system, submission to the majority verdict is another. It's a system aimed at neutralising that most toxic of political emotions, Sore Loser Syndrome (SLS). And the chicness of doing that are far greater if you're voting for a political party rather than a political outcome. Parties, after all, make a range of obscure promises, so even if your own party loses you can still hope the winners will enact some of what you want. By contrast, a plebiscite offers voters a stark choice over a single outcome - a fine way of stimulating citizen participation but a lousy way of suppressing SLS. We can see that only too clearly from the reaction of last week's sore loses (the Lib Dems among them) who now seek to reverse the majority decision. Insanity. If they're sore at losing, just imagine the hysterical SLS of the majority robbed of victory. It's almost a recipe for civil war. How very stupid clever people can be - Jeremy O'Grady
    I'm telling you, it's an outrage. I can't believe their hypocrisy and self-satisfaction.The logical conclusion to their view is endless referenda. You simply cannot invent some phoney criteria about percentage victory after the result. Otherwise leave could do that again. And what makes them think they would get a victory by that percentage? They would hope, clearly, to have it fixed, ot pump out even more overbearing, fake insults about racism and propaganda. This is why we have a mainstream media pushing the racist country thing right now, as if there was no racism before, it's propaganda for an overturn. I don't give a damn how morally superior remain think they are, they are the pits. They won't pull together, take opportunistic, sickeningly righteous positions, and scariest of all they have shown themselves utterly contemptuous of democracy. No surprise they love an anti-democratic institution. They all seem to think the same, their self-satisfaction and sense of moral and intellectual superiority is insufferable, and their position is nothing more than opportunism. They were smug and cocksure and got punished. Now they remain self-satisfied as to why anyone would vote against global establishment. The little people just don't understand whats best for them, so we'll do away with representative democracy, and have luvvies and the privileged decide whats best for everyone in an autocracy.

    This is from the 'Tao Te Ching', ancient Chinese spiritual text.

    High Virtue is non-virtuous;

    Therefore it has Virtue.

    Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

    Therefore it has no Virtue.

    High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends to serve:

    Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

    High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

    High morality not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

    Hi ceremony fusses but finds no response;

    Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

    Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

    Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

    Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

    Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.


    Sounds like too many remainers.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I'm telling you, it's an outrage. I can't believe their hypocrisy and self-satisfaction.The logical conclusion to their view is endless referenda. You simply cannot invent some phoney criteria about percentage victory after the result. Otherwise leave could do that again. And what makes them think they would get a victory by that percentage? They would hope, clearly, to have it fixed, ot pump out even more overbearing, fake insults about racism and propaganda. This is why we have a mainstream media pushing the racist country thing right now, as if there was no racism before, it's propaganda for an overturn. I don't give a damn how morally superior remain think they are, they are the pits. They won't pull together, take opportunistic, sickeningly righteous positions, and scariest of all they have shown themselves utterly contemptuous of democracy. No surprise they love an anti-democratic institution. They all seem to think the same, their self-satisfaction and sense of moral and intellectual superiority is insufferable, and their position is nothing more than opportunism. They were smug and cocksure and got punished. Now they remain self-satisfied as to why anyone would vote against global establishment. The little people just don't understand whats best for them, so we'll do away with representative democracy, and have luvvies and the privileged decide whats best for everyone in an autocracy.

    This is from the 'Tao Te Ching'

    High Virtue is non-virtuous;

    Therefore it has Virtue.

    Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

    Therefore it has no Virtue.

    High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends to serve:

    Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

    High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

    High morality not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

    Hi ceremony fusses but finds no response;

    Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

    Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

    Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

    Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

    Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.


    Sound familiar remainers?
    I voted for a referendum and not a neverendum.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    How do you know it's only millennials signing the petition?

    And funny you should view "overturning" a referendum as "not a democracy, that would be a dictatorship in disguise as a democracy..."

    Who said this? “the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues
    Spoiler:
    Show
    It was Margaret Thatcher, and it's from an earlier quote by Clement Attlee:

    Clement Attlee, Spring 1945: "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism.”

    And saying it forced Churchill into calling a General Election, that he lost.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ticism-history
    If you have a look at the photos of those who are currently protesting against democracy in London, as well as those who predominantly voted to remain, it's millennials.

    Who cares what arbitrary comment Thatcher made? A question was posed to the voting public, who came out and the majority said; "leave". I think it's time for people to grow up and accept the outcome of a fairly held vote.

    If you want it to be overturned, then you clearly would be better off finding a dictatorship or other form of government to live in, because if you can't accept the result of a democratic vote, a democracy is not for you.
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    I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?

    Click this link to sign the petition:
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...GlRFWP3R1ruWQR





    My petition:

    EU Membership for Individuals Permit free travel/study/work £4:50 week

    People are accustomed to travelling to the mainland, without applying for a visa or a permit to work or study. Individual EU membership will allow those who choose to individual EU membership to remain connected and involved with their EU counterparts, without additional fees or permits
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    (Original post by geoking)
    If you have a look at the photos of those who are currently protesting against democracy in London, as well as those who predominantly voted to remain, it's millennials.

    Who cares what arbitrary comment Thatcher made? A question was posed to the voting public, who came out and the majority said; "leave". I think it's time for people to grow up and accept the outcome of a fairly held vote.

    If you want it to be overturned, then you clearly would be better off finding a dictatorship or other form of government to live in, because if you can't accept the result of a democratic vote, a democracy is not for you.
    The advisory referendum has to go before parliament fir assent, and must thought to benefit the country.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    If you have a look at the photos of those who are currently protesting against democracy in London, as well as those who predominantly voted to remain, it's millennials.

    Who cares what arbitrary comment Thatcher made? A question was posed to the voting public, who came out and the majority said; "leave". I think it's time for people to grow up and accept the outcome of a fairly held vote.

    If you want it to be overturned, then you clearly would be better off finding a dictatorship or other form of government to live in, because if you can't accept the result of a democratic vote, a democracy is not for you.
    You don't care about what two previous Prime Ministers think of referendums? Attlee and Thatcher. One Labour, one Tory. One who was at the heart of the creation of the welfare state post WW2, and one who was Britain's longest serving PM in the 20th Century.

    And millenials didn't primarily declare they wanted to remain; most of them didn't bother to vote at all. As I'm not a millennial myself that IS something that annoys me.

    And, to be clear, I don't want a (non-binding) referendum overturned. I want it to be reconsidered. That's quite different. And is exactly what democracy is all about.

    Edit: not many 18-34s in this photo.
    Attached Images
     
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    (Original post by jneill)
    You don't care about what two previous Prime Ministers think of referendums? Attlee and Thatcher. One Labour, one Tory. One who was at the heart of the creation of the welfare state post WW2, and one who was Britain's longest serving PM in the 20th Century.

    And millenials didn't primarily declare they wanted to remain; most of them didn't bother to vote at all. As I'm not a millennial myself that IS something that annoys me.

    And, to be clear, I don't want a (non-binding) referendum overturned. I want it to be reconsidered. That's quite different. And is exactly what democracy is all about.

    Edit: not many 18-34s in this photo.
    The Brexit demo is superb!

    Most people here want Parliament to think again and a second referendum at a later stage when a proper arrangement to stay has been worked out with the EU.
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    I voted for a referendum and not a neverendum.
    To be fair, all referendums are neverendums now. :teehee:
 
 
 
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