Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

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JamesyC
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#8161
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#8161
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How do we bask in our glory when we realise that Salmond et als white paper is found to be wishful thinking and their economic assumptions have been grossly over exaggerated?
Because politics is a funny aul thing and Salmond's white paper is not a constitution. Ideas and policies will change with future global and economic developments. Thats natural of any independent country.

There is no guarantee the SNP would even win an election post independence. Also while you may not bask, many people will. Nationalism does that to people.
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MatureStudent36
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#8162
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#8162
(Original post by JamesyC)
Because politics is a funny aul thing and Salmond's white paper is not a constitution. Ideas and policies will change with future global and economic developments. Thats natural of any independent country.

There is no guarantee the SNP would even win an election post independence. Also while you may not bask, many people will. Nationalism does that to people.
I suspect that some YeSNP are nationalists, but quite a few are dinosaurs harking back to a 1970s style socialist utopia.
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Midlander
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#8163
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#8163
(Original post by JamesyC)
The question for me isn't if Scotland can go it alone. They can. The question is how easy it will be.

The fearmongering from Better Together is simply that - fearmongering. Realistically Scotland will bask in its glory for a whole, the economics of independence will be felt in 5 or 10 years time, not the day after attaining sovereignty. In all honesty, things won't change that much, and whoever is in-charge of the money in England/rUK will do whatever is to their benefit, be it a currency union or not. It would be very silly to believe what Better Together are saying right now is what the UK will stick to, it does not speak for future governments or future markets.

They might even find themselves with a friendlier Scottish government post-independence, if it happens. Infact, I'd bet Labour will be straight in there. The SNP for a lot of people is a means to an end, they'll be dropped after that goal is achieved and their main purpose for existing has been achieved.
The SNP is nothing without Salmond. Once he leaves the party it will nosedive regardless of the political situation. Johann Lamont's resignation would also help.


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Boab
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#8164
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#8164
(Original post by Midlander)
The SNP is nothing without Salmond. Once he leaves the party it will nosedive regardless of the political situation. Johann Lamont's resignation would also help.


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Leadership wise Salmond is head and shoulders above anyone else in the SNP, but then he's head and shoulders above most politicians. Elected leader 24 years ago and still there, albeit for a brief holiday.

If Lamont resigned, is there really anyone in Labour's ranks to take over?
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Midlander
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#8165
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#8165
(Original post by Boab)
Leadership wise Salmond is head and shoulders above anyone else in the SNP, but then he's head and shoulders above most politicians. Elected leader 24 years ago and still there, albeit for a brief holiday.

If Lamont resigned, is there really anyone in Labour's ranks to take over?
I rate Anas Sarwar quite highly however the party has nobody of Salmond's calibre which is a thorn in its side. Lamont in recent weeks has stooped to trying to win over the nationalists which to me makes her position untenable. I also expect the Scottish Tories to go from strength to strength as the third party under Davidson who I think is a far better party leader at this moment in time.

As an aside, people claiming that London is a hotbed of Conservatism may be interested to know that YouGov polls put Labour first in Westminster, European and council elections there.


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VladThe1mpaler
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#8166
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#8166
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...philip-hammond

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond claims "everything is negotiable" when it comes to Scottish independence.

"You can't go into any negotiation with things that are non-negotiable. You can go with things you intend to make your principal objectives in a negotiation and, when you have issues about which you are not prepared to be flexible, invariably you have to give way on other things in order to achieve your objectives."
I've been saying the same thing from the beginning, but I just hope this doesn't mean SNP turning their back on their promise to get rid of Trident.
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Midlander
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#8167
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#8167
(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...philip-hammond

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond claims "everything is negotiable" when it comes to Scottish independence.



I've been saying the same thing from the beginning, but I just hope this doesn't mean SNP turning their back on their promise to get rid of Trident.
Have the SNP bothered to raise Trident with Westminster if they're so opposed to it?


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Boab
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#8168
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#8168
(Original post by Midlander)
I rate Anas Sarwar quite highly however the party has nobody of Salmond's calibre which is a thorn in its side. Lamont in recent weeks has stooped to trying to win over the nationalists which to me makes her position untenable. I also expect the Scottish Tories to go from strength to strength as the third party under Davidson who I think is a far better party leader at this moment in time.

As an aside, people claiming that London is a hotbed of Conservatism may be interested to know that YouGov polls put Labour first in Westminster, European and council elections there.


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Mid-term polls always have the opposition ahead. I cannot seriously see people voting Ed Milliband in as PM. He has the 'Kinnock' factor!
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jenkinsear
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#8169
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#8169
(Original post by JamesyC)
then Better Together will go down in history as a massive factor because it is so incredibly negative.
History won't care. Scotland is irrelevant. I'll be surprised if there is even a footnote about it in any future 25th century version of a history textbook.
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jenkinsear
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#8170
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#8170
(Original post by Boab)
Mid-term polls always have the opposition ahead. I cannot seriously see people voting Ed Milliband in as PM. He has the 'Kinnock' factor!
Unless Labour come out with some incredible policies that win over your average swing voter then I agree Ed won't win. Given he has Ed Balls as shadow chancellor I'm not expecting anything good on the economic policy front...
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Midlander
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#8171
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#8171
(Original post by Boab)
Mid-term polls always have the opposition ahead. I cannot seriously see people voting Ed Milliband in as PM. He has the 'Kinnock' factor!
To be honest I struggle to as well. The main reason I still vote Labour in the Westminster elections is because the MP who stands is a pretty good one.


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1tartanarmy
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#8172
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#8172
(Original post by Midlander)
Have the SNP bothered to raise Trident with Westminster if they're so opposed to it?


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Defence isn't devolved
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euphful
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#8173
(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Defence isn't devolved
Neither is constitutional reform but they've successfully lobbied for a referendum on it.


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FinalMH
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#8174
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#8174
(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...philip-hammond

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond claims "everything is negotiable" when it comes to Scottish independence.



I've been saying the same thing from the beginning, but I just hope this doesn't mean SNP turning their back on their promise to get rid of Trident.
To be honest his comment was a bit stupid, talk about playing down your own side. The SNP have made it clear trident isn't up for negotiation. The UK have made it clear the currency union isn't up for negotiation, so fine.
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MatureStudent36
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#8175
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#8175
(Original post by Boab)
Leadership wise Salmond is head and shoulders above anyone else in the SNP, but then he's head and shoulders above most politicians. Elected leader 24 years ago and still there, albeit for a brief holiday.

If Lamont resigned, is there really anyone in Labour's ranks to take over?
I'd agree he's head and shoulders in Holyrood, but at Westminster he was a nobody.
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Midlander
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#8176
(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Defence isn't devolved
It wouldn't have to be for it to be moved?


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JamesyC
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#8177
(Original post by jenkinsear)
History won't care. Scotland is irrelevant. I'll be surprised if there is even a footnote about it in any future 25th century version of a history textbook.
Disagree.
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FinalMH
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#8178
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#8178
(Original post by jenkinsear)
History won't care. Scotland is irrelevant. I'll be surprised if there is even a footnote about it in any future 25th century version of a history textbook.
How are you defining history? As in the history of Scotland? Then I would disagree. Look at the July 4th in America still celebrated. However if you're talking about in the context of the world history, then it would be irrelevant.
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Le Franglais
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#8179
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#8179
Guys have a little thought about this: What would Scotland's reaction be if the rest of the UK said "Sorry Scotland, but we don't need you any more" .... There'd be an uproar wouldn't there? Alex Salmond is a deluded hypocrite, it seems to me that he hasn't thought this through enough ...
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Midlander
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#8180
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#8180
(Original post by Le Franglais)
Guys have a little thought about this: What would Scotland's reaction be if the rest of the UK said "Sorry Scotland, but we don't need you any more" .... There'd be an uproar wouldn't there? Alex Salmond is a deluded hypocrite, it seems to me that he hasn't thought this through enough ...
Is it legally possible for a member state to be ejected?


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