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    Video purporting to show weapons seized from IDF soldiers behind "enemy lines":

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    The conservative estimation of the ongoing cost of Operation Protective Edge currently stands at $585 million (not including indirect costs such as compensation to business and lost workdays as well as impact on Israeli economy...

    I wonder how much it has cost HAMAS....
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Ohhh "discussing" you say...wow, maybe even an angry letter?

    I'm talking about the rag-tag bunch of hypocrites we see marching by the thousands denouncing Israel, when Assad and other players in Syria kill that many people with a couple of barrel bombs.

    So I ask you again...

    Where was 'stop the war' coalition with regards to Syria? where are the thousands of protesters marching? over 3 years and 200,000 dead, yet nowhere to be seen.

    Where are the boycott campaigns against Syria?

    Where are those 'peace flotillas' LOL to Syria?

    Around 20+ times as many Arabs have died in Syria in 3 years, than have died against Israel in 45+ years. Think about that for a minute.



    I'm sorry. The BBC for example has had the Gaza situation from day 1 (when I say Day 1...I mean Day1 of Israel's retaliation, not Day 1 of Gaza's bombardment of Israel every day for 3 weeks prior to retaliation:rolleyes:) as the main headline news.

    The BBC counts every death and takes Hamas health ministry figures as being accurate. They make no distinction between terrorists and civilians. Death tolls are given as absolute.

    In Ukraine more people have died. Why is that not headline news. Why do they talk about 'rebel' deaths and 'civilian' deaths? they manage to differentiate there, but not Gaza?

    The disproportion here is the coverage Israel gets.




    LOL, the Taliban are ordinary Afghans.


    I'll tell you what Mori, I'll do you a deal. I have connections to the Israeli military.

    I will propose a new military doctrine of 'proportionality' called The 'AutVinceriAutMori doctrine'. This will be based on your idea of proportionality.

    Now I assume you would agree with me that mirroring someone's actions is as proportional as one can be, correct?

    So this is my suggestion.

    For every rocket indiscriminately fired from Gaza into Israel - Israel responds by firing the same unguided rocket, with the same payload as the 'palestinian' rocket.

    So that would mean that around 150 rockets per day would land indiscriminately on Gaza.

    So no guidance system & no targeting.

    That is pure proportionality and I think Israel should adopt this tactic. What say you?
    This might have been mentioned before, but like I said again and again there is already an outcry over Assad. Like, legit outcry by Hague and co, sound condemnation from all media outlets and public. Plus, last I checked, no one was supplying Assad military and monetary aid, or excusing his actions by the fact that he needs to defends himself from Islamist rebels. In fact, Assad is ostracised by most of international community.
    There is a great number if charities that support the plight of Syrians, would you like to make a donation? Because I can link you, given how concerned you are about Syria.

    Fine- let your friends at IDF know that they can fire a rocket for every Hamas rocket, but only if Iron Dome II is built around Gaza, and Israel uses the same rockets as Gaza does, as opposed to much more sophisticated weaponry that IDF employs. Let Gazans take their share of US and EU aid to build their infrastructure. Let Gaza have a paid PR army to defend it's every action like IDF does. Deal?
    Let me know how your negotiations go.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    I agree that the settlements are not the root cause of the conflict (and said so in the post you quoted). Of course, the root cause of the conflict is that the Palestinian resistance movement cares more about the nakba than democracy. But some settlers are absolute criminals who treat the Arabs like ****. There's no denying that.
    Actually, the Arab attacks against Jews pre-date the so-called Nakba by around 3 decades.

    Vast majorities of 'settlers' are peaceful and many are quite happy to share with the Arabs. There are around half a million, so if they were all bad there would be far more problems. Most settlers that behave badly tend to be from abroad. As is fairly typical, people from abroad tend to have self-radicalised themselves and the whole reason they move to Israel is to specifically live in Judea and Samaria (west bank)

    The 'west bank' is a new name of course.

    I have great sympathy for them because Judea and Samaria morally belongs to the Jewish nation, as its history is rooted in Judaism. It has no connection to a 'palestinian' people, but does have come connection to Islam (which of course came a couple of thousand years after Judaism) and some connection to Arab peoples, but no connection to a 'palestinian' people.

    I would have much more respect for them if they dropped the fabricated moniker of 'palestinians' and admitted they were Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians etc,

    A bit like this Hamas guy kindly explains

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efa_1333570776

    01:17 for the interesting admission.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Actually, the Arab attacks against Jews pre-date the so-called Nakba by around 3 decades.

    Vast majorities of 'settlers' are peaceful and many are quite happy to share with the Arabs. There are around half a million, so if they were all bad there would be far more problems. Most settlers that behave badly tend to be from abroad. As is fairly typical, people from abroad tend to have self-radicalised themselves and the whole reason they move to Israel is to specifically live in Judea and Samaria (west bank)

    The 'west bank' is a new name of course.

    I have great sympathy for them because Judea and Samaria morally belongs to the Jewish nation, as its history is rooted in Judaism. It has no connection to a 'palestinian' people, but does have come connection to Islam (which of course came a couple of thousand years after Judaism) and some connection to Arab peoples, but no connection to a 'palestinian' people.

    I would have much more respect for them if they dropped the fabricated moniker of 'palestinians' and admitted they were Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians etc,

    A bit like this Hamas guy kindly explains

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efa_1333570776

    01:17 for the interesting admission.
    Well I have no interest in nationalism or that kind of thing, I am interested in whether or not the countries are free, whatever their names happen to be. I don't share either of the two religious faiths in question, which could have something to do with it. And the way I see it is that there was an injustice done to the people who were living in the Palestinian mandate territory, and I would support their claim to separate statehood if it weren't for their dismal attitude to Israel and democracy (of course I'm generalising).
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    (Original post by AutVinceriAutMori)

    Fine- let your friends at IDF know that they can fire a rocket for every Hamas rocket, but only if Iron Dome II is built around Gaza, and Israel uses the same rockets as Gaza does, as opposed to much more sophisticated weaponry that IDF employs. Let Gazans take their share of US and EU aid to build their infrastructure. Let Gaza have a paid PR army to defend it's every action like IDF does. Deal?
    Let me know how your negotiations go.
    Now, now. You're starting to move the goal posts.

    Iron Dome is a 'defensive' system and in no way contributes to any argument over proportionality.

    The discussion is about Israel's offensive retaliatory response which you deem to be disproportionate.

    After all, no laws exist that state warring parties must be completely equal.

    Now I conservatively estimate that if Israelis returned the 1,400 rockets fired at Israel, back into Gaza - there would be perhaps 3,000 deaths and 15,000 injuries.

    For example, a Grad strike (the type of rocket 'palestinians' enjoy firing) hit a Ukrainian military post killing 30 soldiers recently. So we know they can be quite lethal of course.


    I would love Israel to do this, just to see the confused expressions on European faces....like...."oh damn...what can we accuse them of now...they're literally being as proportionate as can be...yet more palestinians are dying"
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    You can't help yourself can you?


    Try responding to what I said, not what I didn't say. I was plainly referring to how Arab culture manifests itself in the world TODAY, not 1600 years ago!


    Again respond to what I said, don't make it up to suit yourself! You know I was referring to the three Abrahamic religions, a point I made in response to your initial comment about Islam being much more gender egalitarian than Judaism and Christianity. You need to learn a discussion involves a dialogue, not a bit of disparagement followed by unrelated points masquerading as relevant responses to my points.


    Totally nothing to do with my initial response to what you said. Can you please try and concentrate on the points at hand instead of going off on a tangent. It seems like you are presuming to guess my views. How patronizing.


    You have know idea what I read and what I don't so stop pretending. The only "stereotyping" going on is you stereotyping me as some ignorant Westerner whose understanding of the topic must be lacking, especially when it is contra to your own. The rest of your statement is vague generalisation.


    That is just it, I did go to the trouble of addressing your particular points. How you managed to overlook that puzzles me. I have to conclude the entire exercise has been a waste of my time because of your childish efforts to gain ground by rude remarks, your patronising assumptions about what I know and think: incredibly stereotypical and wide of the mark. You seriously need to try and contain your argument to the points of response. Falsely attributing words to another is either lazy because you cannot be bothered to read the person's reply properly, or just purposefully disingenuous.
    Its really irritating when you try and get a debate going but the other person insists on avoiding the points (despite that being the whole motivation for the interaction) and talking waffles. You aren't arguing here to try and establish facts you are arguing for your ego and the sake of being right. The only retort you actually put forward was regarding gender differences and my reply was simply ignored by you. Just because the gender differences and problems in Arab countries are more publicized than the domestic abuse problems we have in some western countries or the sexual objectification of women which appears to be fairly prominent here does not mean it is worse.

    I know you threw a temper tantrum when I suggested you read a book, but that comment was said on the grounds that you quite clearly havent demonstrated any sort of decent grasp of the things we are talking about. With regards to the gender differences and modern manifestations of them within Islam, I suggest you do some background digging around and realize what the place of the women was within the original teachings of Muhammed.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I think "atrocities" is perhaps over egging things a bit.

    First of all you should concede that not a single Gazan would be killed if they did not fire rockets or send their murderers out to kill Israeli boys in the West Bank.

    And before you mention the blockade - first of all there was no blockade in place between 2005 and 2007. Yet the rockets kept coming.

    The migrant issue is a non-starter. Both 'palestinians' and Jews were migrants into the region of 'palestine'. Remember that Jews bought a lot of land and indeed some of that land is now in the possession of 'palestinians' despite the fact it was bought by Jews.

    I think it's time for 'palestinains' to stop being professional refugees. The world has seen far greater refugee problems and in more recent times too.

    It has happened throughout history and people have resolved their situation. Remember Israel took in 900,000 refugees.


    Anyway, appreciate your comments.
    Palestinians had inhabited these lands for centuries, don't forget. So, for it to be occupied in such a day an age is something I won't easily neglect. These people are 'professional refugees' for a reason. They were forced to move into certain chunks of land on either side of the previous land mass known as 'Palestine', and - of course - refused. Regardless of who was or wasn't indigenous to that land mass (most of the population was Arabic, by the way), people were displaced from their homes. Meanwhile, the recent European Jewish migrants embraced it - as they obviously would, gaining land. You have to acknowledge that Palestinians lost most of the land they called theirs, essentially because of the guilt of Western Europe and their treatment of the same Jews. The reason why Islamic states are still working - even though I frown upon the idea of one - is because most the country is Islamic! 99% of Iran are Shia Muslim, and the government has accordingly suited to a majority of their needs.

    The land mass designated as Palestine as a British mandate, however, had held a majority non-Jewish population before 1947, and so I don't see its right there to suddenly create this Jewish state. I see it as a frantic land grab, honestly. Think about who the Jews you mentioned bought the land from; the Palestinians who inhabited the place for centuries! This is a mass example of eutrophication to me: buy out the land of those indigenous and simply place them elsewhere. And that elsewhere happens to be the West Bank and Gaza areas, which are slowly eaten away by Israeli settlements that house that half million I've mentioned earlier. It simply isn't right. So, I think it's very unjust of you to place quotation marks on Palestine. I won't do that to the state of Israel, because I acknowledge its existence, but I certainly don't acknowledge its right to exist - like almost all Arabic countries surrounding it.

    And the constant American funding to the country is like salt-on-wounds for the Palestinians, and another reason to make the US Iran's enemy. You mentioned earlier that Israel does more to help Gaza than harm it, but at the moment we see that help has bore little fruit. The US continues to embargo both Fatah and Hamas, deeming them 'terrorist organisations', despite them collectively leading the Palestinian people. Then it grants Israel $18 billion per annum; 17% of which is spent on the nation's military. Still think Gaza and the West Bank are getting the help they need? I beg to differ. No wonder the 'rockets keep coming', these people are in trouble, and have been for decades. The reason why there is such attention on this is because this entire crippling of Palestine is regulated. Let x amount of goods in, and y amount of building supplies. Meanwhile, the settlement building machine is more fervent than ever, picking away at any free piece of land not fenced or ripe for the taking. I don't see any reasonable means for defending this.
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    Lets be honest that country belongs to Jews. Has there ever been a country called Palestine before?? Not that I remember. What is a Palestinian then? they're almost very much a mythological group. I suppose if they're than a Jew can be a Palestinian. It's not like Islam hasn't entered other lands and occupying them either. Forcing it's culture, ways and beliefs onto other people without their consent either..but of course lets ignore that because we use a different term to describe that effect :rolleyes:
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    I think Israel has a right to the land i just dont like seeing innocent civilians being hurt on both sides. Israel not only has a historical right to the land but due to their superiority in all respects they can occupy whatever they want.

    If Palestine was the dominant player im sure it will do the same if not worse to Israel. Get with it. Not sure why Muslims are crying wolf when they are attacking other lands/religions/suppressing peoples rights for freedom.
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    (Original post by CryptoidAlien)
    Lets be honest that country belongs to Jews. Has there ever been a country called Palestine before?? Not that I remember. What is a Palestinian then? they're almost very much a mythological group. I suppose if they're than a Jew can be a Palestinian. It's not like Islam hasn't entered other lands and occupying them either. Forcing it's culture, ways and beliefs onto other people without their consent either..but of course lets ignore that because we use a different term to describe that effect :rolleyes:
    That'll be why Palestine has a name then...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

    Also,it's recognised as a resal country (took forever though... )

    It's also widely recognised as a country:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

    I am not impressed at the UK here... Though I guess we at least recognise it
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    (Original post by CryptoidAlien)
    Lets be honest that country belongs to Jews. Has there ever been a country called Palestine before?? Not that I remember. What is a Palestinian then? they're almost very much a mythological group. I suppose if they're than a Jew can be a Palestinian. It's not like Islam hasn't entered other lands and occupying them either. Forcing it's culture, ways and beliefs onto other people without their consent either..but of course lets ignore that because we use a different term to describe that effect :rolleyes:
    Every racial/national group is defined only by the people themselves - Wales would just be another region of England if the Welsh didn't see themselves as a distinct group. The people living in the area known as Palestine see themselves as Palestinians, therefore they have the right to self-determination.
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    Looks like a heat-map of increased diversity to me. At least it's more multicultural now.
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    (Original post by PythianLegume)
    Every racial/national group is defined only by the people themselves - Wales would just be another region of England if the Welsh didn't see themselves as a distinct group. The people living in the area known as Palestine see themselves as Palestinians, therefore they have the right to self-determination.
    Haha, the hypocrisy on this thread is....huge.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    And the way I see it is that there was an injustice done to the people who were living in the Palestinian mandate territory, and I would support their claim to separate statehood if it weren't for their dismal attitude to Israel and democracy (of course I'm generalising).
    There was an "injustice" as you put it, despite the fact that they were offered 78% of mandatory 'palestine' and refused it because they wanted 100%?

    They then launched a war and if Israel had not won, there would have been a second Holocaust.

    Even Abbas admits this was a "mistake" as he put it.



    A "mistake" is bumping the car behind you as you try to parallel park. This wasn't a "mistake" it was a calculated but catastrophic plan.

    And this "mistake" was then made ten times greater as they continually lost wars waged on Israel.

    I don't have any sympathy for their bankrupt cause.

    Israel cannot lose a single war. If they had lost ANY wars, there would be no Israel - yet the Arabs on the other hand get to take swipe after swipe after swipe at Israel and STILL retain the 'victim' status from people like you.

    I find it reprehensible.



    (Original post by moali125)
    Palestinians had inhabited these lands for centuries, don't forget.
    LOL. Arabs have inhabited these lands. There is no such thing as a 'palestinian'.

    Popular 'palestinian' surnames:

    Al-Masri translates to 'the Egyptian'
    Al-Djazair translates to 'The Algerian'



    The land mass designated as Palestine as a British mandate, however, had held a majority non-Jewish population before 1947,
    Population size does not equate to ownership. This is what you need to get through your head.

    If there was only ONE Jew and he owned half of 'palestine' it would not matter if 10,000 'palestinians' lived on it, it's Jewish land.

    Going by your logic then, Jerusalem belongs to Jews because Jerusalem had a bigger Jewish population than 'palestinian'.

    The rest of your post becomes increasingly wide-eyed, which is no surprise given that Iranian media has been controlled for 35+ years.

    There are no settlements in Gaza by the way.
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    (Original post by CryptoidAlien)
    Haha, the hypocrisy on this thread is....huge.
    How so?
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    (Original post by PythianLegume)
    How so?
    OP probably commenting on his own posts
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    man, one single google search.... ONE
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    Worth a look
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