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Petition calling for 2nd Referendum - and write to your MP Watch

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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    I voted for a referendum and not a neverendum.
    To be fair, all referendums are neverendums now. :teehee:
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    To be fair, all referendums are neverendums now. :teehee:
    I disagree with that assertion if I'm honest.

    2/3 nationwide referendums have not been "neverendums":

    -The 1975 European Economic Community referendum. We had a referendum on the issue of our EEC membership and didn't have another referendum for 41 years.
    -The AV referendum in 2011. We had a referendum on replacing First Past The Post (FPTP) with the Alternative Vote (AV) and people didn't demand a 2nd referendum on the matter.

    I think people demand further referenda when circumstances have changed materially and substantially since the previous referendum. The EU changed considerably between 1975 and 2016 (indeed the EU as a political union did not exist as it does today in 1975).
    There could be a 2nd Scottish independence referendum because Scotland's position has changed significantly (it is no longer part of the EU, which it was until last Thursday) so it is understandable that a 2nd referendum is desired.
    Still, I don't think it's fair to say that "all referendums are neverendums now" if I'm honest.
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    I disagree with that assertion if I'm honest.

    2/3 nationwide referendums have not been "neverendums":

    -The 1975 European Economic Community referendum. We had a referendum on the issue of our EEC membership and didn't have another referendum for 41 years.
    -The AV referendum in 2011. We had a referendum on replacing First Past The Post (FPTP) with the Alternative Vote (AV) and people didn't demand a 2nd referendum on the matter.
    What were the % for : against in those 2 previous national referendums?

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    (Original post by jneill)
    What were the % for : against in those 2 previous national referendums?

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    1975 European Economic Community referendum:
    In: 67.23% Out: 22.77%

    2011 AV referendum:
    Yes to AV: 32.10% No to AV: 67.90%
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    1975 European Economic Community referendum:
    In: 67.23% Out: 22.77%

    2011 AV referendum:
    Yes to AV: 32.10% No to AV: 67.90%
    Yep. Not close... more than 2/3rds one way or the other.

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    (Original post by jneill)
    Yep. Not close... more than 2/3rds one way or the other.

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    The fact that we've only had 3 nationwide referenda in our entire history would also suggest that referendums don't become neverendums.
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    Two were post legislation. This is pre. Ireland has them all the time and ignores them.
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    The fact that we've only had 3 nationwide referenda in our entire history would also suggest that referendums don't become neverendums.
    See my earlier post about why we rarely have them at all (Attlee, Thatcher). And the frequent reminders about Ireland (and others) having multiple ones.

    And also, if we have learned anything from this week, it's "never" doesn't necessarily mean "never". (DC would never resign....)

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    We just had a referendum, it is not been approved by gov. No second one is required.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    See my earlier post about why we rarely have them at all (Attlee, Thatcher). And the frequent reminders about Ireland (and others) having multiple ones.

    And also, if we have learned anything from this week, it's "never" doesn't necessarily mean "never". (DC would never resign....)

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    YouGov has said most people dont want a referendum. Whats your answer to that
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    There will be no second referendum. The first has not yet been approved by gov.
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    I disagree with that assertion if I'm honest.

    2/3 nationwide referendums have not been "neverendums":

    -The 1975 European Economic Community referendum. We had a referendum on the issue of our EEC membership and didn't have another referendum for 41 years.
    -The AV referendum in 2011. We had a referendum on replacing First Past The Post (FPTP) with the Alternative Vote (AV) and people didn't demand a 2nd referendum on the matter.

    I think people demand further referenda when circumstances have changed materially and substantially since the previous referendum. The EU changed considerably between 1975 and 2016 (indeed the EU as a political union did not exist as it does today in 1975).
    There could be a 2nd Scottish independence referendum because Scotland's position has changed significantly (it is no longer part of the EU, which it was until last Thursday) so it is understandable that a 2nd referendum is desired.
    Still, I don't think it's fair to say that "all referendums are neverendums now" if I'm honest.
    The crucial word in my sentence was "now".
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    I voted Leave so unfortunately a petition for a 2nd referendum is not what i care about really
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    I voted Leave and Leave won fair and square, so stop acting like sore losers and move on. Anyway for all you Remain supporters we(the government) have barely even talked about leaving yet
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    I don't really understand why people are signing petitions for this? It was the UK's choice to make a suitable decision on 23rd June 2016 and the results showed that the country wants to leave the European Union. The points such as ''Brexiters are regretting the decision now'' or ''People who voted to leave didn't even know what EU was'' is nonsense. There is a law suggesting that only people aged 18 and over is allowed to vote for a reason. We are mature enough to take any voting effecting the country seriously. Even if the Brexiter's regretting the decision, tough there is no way out now.
    Going for a second referendum will basically show the world that this is not a democratic country. Everyone had months to create judgements and consider the consequences as well as benefits to remain or leave the European Union. We had the power and control to allow changes to happen, so these petitions do not make sense to me.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    See my earlier post about why we rarely have them at all (Attlee, Thatcher). And the frequent reminders about Ireland (and others) having multiple ones.

    And also, if we have learned anything from this week, it's "never" doesn't necessarily mean "never". (DC would never resign....)

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    Ah yes! "Alien to all our traditions" is what Attlee said in 1945, I think Thatcher said the same thing in 1975. I think that's no longer true as it was in 1975, as the 1975 referendum set a precedent that issues of such monumental importance should be put to the electorate in a referendum, in my view.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The crucial word in my sentence was "now".
    I don't believe there will be a 2nd referendum "now" or in future. The crucial word in my post was "never"
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    I don't believe there will be a 2nd referendum "now" or in future. The crucial word in my post was "never"
    There almost certainly will either be another referendum or an election to decide whether the UK is happy with the negotiated settlement...

    You have to remember there is no Manifesto pledge to take the UK out of the EU.
    I would suggest the Conservatives would need to go to the country before they changed their manifesto in such a dramatic way. I'm pretty sure, for example, London and Manchester and Scottish Tories (got 30% in recent Scottish election) did not vote Tory to leave the EU.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    There almost certainly will either be another referendum or an election to decide whether the UK is happy with the negotiated settlement...

    You have to remember there is no Manifesto pledge to take the UK out of the EU.
    I would suggest the Conservatives would need to go to the country before they changed their manifesto in such a dramatic way. I'm pretty sure, for example, London and Manchester and Scottish Tories (got 30% in recent Scottish election) did not vote Tory to leave the EU.
    I agree that the term of our negotiations should be put to the country in a General Election or further referendum. My point was that the referendum on whether we should be part of the EU will not be re-run.
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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    Ah yes! "Alien to all our traditions" is what Attlee said in 1945, I think Thatcher said the same thing in 1975. I think that's no longer true as it was in 1975, as the 1975 referendum set a precedent that issues of such monumental importance should be put to the electorate in a referendum, in my view.
    It was a bit stronger than that: (re-posting as you don't seem to have seen it from earlier)

    the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues

    Margaret Thatcher, from an earlier quote by Clement Attlee:

    Clement Attlee, Spring 1945: "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism.”

    And saying it forced Churchill into calling a General Election, that he lost.

    ---

    But I do agree that a 2nd Referendum is unlikely in the short term, but very likely (or a GE) towards the end of Brexit negotiations. I've been saying this all the way through.

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