D&D Religion's "Ask About Sikhism" Thread Watch

Noor90
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(Original post by P.Kaur)


kee janam bheae keett patha(n)gaa ||
In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

kee janam gaj meen kura(n)gaa ||
in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

kee janam pa(n)khee sarap hoeiou ||
In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

kee janam haivar brikh joeiou ||1||
In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

mil jagadhees milan kee bareeaa ||
Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

chira(n)kaal eih dhaeh sa(n)jareeaa ||1|| rehaao ||
After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

kee janam sail gir kariaa ||
In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

kee janam garabh hir khariaa ||
in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

kee janam saakh kar oupaaeiaa ||
in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

lakh chouraaseeh jon bhramaaeiaa ||2||
you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

saadhhasa(n)g bhaeiou janam paraapath ||
Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

kar saevaa bhaj har har guramath ||
Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.
Okay now about this shalok.

Notice how the word used is "incarnation", not "reincarnation". They have two very different meanings. Incarnation means "a particular physical form or state."

Now let us remember that Guru Nanak Ji very much accepted the idea of evolution. Sikhi also teaches that creation (the Universe) is ever changing, it is different today to what it was 14.7 billion years ago, and it will be completely different again in the future.

In this sense, I think that the above shalok is another part of SGGS Ji that advocates evolution. Your body is made up of atoms (matter). Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Every atom in your body was at one point a part of something else. It may have been a part of a worm, an insect, elephant, fish, deer, snake etc... And now, after "SO VERY LONG" (billions of years of evolution), those same very atoms are now a part of the human body.

I also don't think that 8.4 million life forms is a fixed number. It is again something out of Hindu scripture. The Guru Jis spoke in the language of the people, so when speaking to Hindus, they would have likely mentioned that they have traveled through 8.4 million incarnations to get to where they are right now. I feel it simply means that every atom in their body, from the very beginning, was once a part of something else, and after having been every other possible thing, it is now a part of the human body.

Using reason and logic, let us consider that science has shown that humans have been around for something like 250,000 years now. If that is true, then this is all of ours' very first human form (if we take "reincarnation" literally). If we mess up, and have to go through another 8.4 million life forms, then considering those species live on average even one year, it will take 8.4 million years before we are human again, and there is no guarantee that our species will even survive that long, since creation is ever-changing. Similarly, if animals/plants cannot accumulate sin, then logic dictates that we must have, at the very beginning, started off as humans, not lived a Gurmat life, and been forced to go through the 8.4 million life forms to once again become humans like we are today (since if we take the shalok literally, it says we have gone through 8.4 million life-forms already). Again, this does not make sense since humans have only been around for about 250,000 years.

The SGGS Ji also mentions going to heaven and hell a few times, but I am pretty sure that Sikhs do not believe in that. The Gurus spoke the language of the people, and when conversing with Muslims, would often allude to heaven/hell, and with Hindus, it was reincarnation.

Also, if you read the essay posted above, you will see that Guru Ji had to come up with the written Punjabi script himself. I do not believe that there is any word in Punjabi that is a translation of "evolution", certainly there wasn't 500 years ago. So I think that Guru Nanak Ji used "reincarnation" instead, as he was trying to talk about "past life forms", and it has a somewhat similar meaning, and would be the easiest way to get his message across to the uneducated masses.
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Noor90
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(Original post by Amanbabbar./)
Sikhs believe that our hair is the strongest aspect of our body.
That's why we tend to keep it and care for it.

(Original post by okapobcfc08)
If you knew the basics about Sikhism, you would know that a) Sikhs dont do rituals and b) keeping a beard or how long to keep it is not a ritual and has more importance. The funny thing is, Sikhs are used to people like you, you think youre some kind of PHD marker that needs to know the full facts about how and why Sikhism was created. What exactly are you trying to gain from all of your posts? 99.99% of readers seem to thing you are trying to discredit Sikhism.

ARE YOU EVEN RELIGIOUS? WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SIKHISM APART FROM VERY LITTLE
(Original post by SMEGGGY)
He conveniently ignores my posts....

Anyway, he should pay more attention to what is happening to Islam, how the Sunnis, Shias, Sufis, Amadhiya, Salfafis, Whahibis, and so on segregate themselves and their beliefs and fighting. He need not concern himself weather Dhan Guru Nanak was preaching a Religion or not.
(Original post by SaintSoldier)
This is 100% not allowed in Sikhi, such people shouldn't even be allowed to call themselves Sikhs.

Gurbani against idol worship:
"The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||"
(Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 556)
(Original post by Lakhvir.Singh)
Thank you for the really detailed response Saint. May I ask why so many Sikh people do it?
(Original post by Use Err Name)
Yep. You are right to say that Sikhs are not allowed to cut any hair on any part of their body. Again, you're right to say that most still do trim anyway, even many who might have uncut hair on their head (unfortunately I am guilty of this).
Anyone else wanna have a go at this reincarnation thing?
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Icecream1
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My understanding on reincarnation in Sikhi is that Guru Jee is telling us to mediate on God and through Simran (remembering and repeating God’s name); we can be freed from the cycle of births and deaths.

I agree that Sikhs do not believe in 8.4 million life forms as this is Guru Jee referring to the Hindu faith tradition.

Hope this has helped.
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Noor90
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(Original post by Icecream1)
My understanding on reincarnation in Sikhi is that Guru Jee is telling us to mediate on God and through Simran (remembering and repeating God’s name); we can be freed from the cycle of births and deaths.

I agree that Sikhs do not believe in 8.4 million life forms as this is Guru Jee referring to the Hindu faith tradition.

Hope this has helped.
Thank you for contributing

So you do think that Sikhi advocates reincarnation? Could you please post a shalok from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that you feel is supporting the concept of reincarnation, and then give your interpretation of it?

Thank you.
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Icecream1
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maajh mehalaa 5 |
koun s mukathaa koun s jugathaa |
koun s giaanee koun s bakathaa |
koun s girehee koun oudhaasee koun s keemath paaeae jeeo |1|
kin bidh baadhaa kin bidh shoottaa |
kin bidh aavan jaavan thoottaa |
koun karam koun nihakaramaa koun s kehai kehaaeae jeeo |2|
koun s sukheeaa koun s dhukheeaa |
koun s sanamukh koun vaemukheeaa |
kin bidh mileeai kin bidh bishurai eih bidh koun pragattaaeae jeeo |3|
koun s akhar jith dhaavath rehathaa |
koun oupadhaes jith dhukh sukh sam sehathaa |
koun s chaal jith paarabreham dhiaaeae kin bidh keerathan gaaeae jeeo |4|
guramukh mukathaa guramukh jugathaa |
guramukh giaanee guramukh bakathaa |
dhann girehee oudhaasee guramukh guramukh keemath paaeae jeeo |5|
houmai baadhaa guramukh shoottaa |
guramukh aavan jaavan thoottaa |
guramukh karam guramukh nihakaramaa guramukh karae s subhaaeae jeeo |6|
guramukh sukheeaa manamukh dhukheeaa |
guramukh sanamukh manamukh vaemukheeaa |
guramukh mileeai manamukh vishurai guramukh bidh pragattaaeae jeeo |7|
guramukh akhar jith dhaavath rehathaa |
guramukh oupadhaes dhukh sukh sam sehathaa |
guramukh chaal jith paarabreham dhiaaeae guramukh keerathan gaaeae jeeo |8|
sagalee banath banaaee aapae |
aapae karae karaaeae thaapae |
eikas thae hoeiou ananthaa naanak eaekas maahi samaaeae jeeo |9|2|36|

Maajh, Fifth Mehl:
Who is liberated, and who is united?
Who is a spiritual teacher, and who is a preacher?
Who is a house-holder, and who is a renunciate? Who can estimate the Lord's Value? ||1||
How is one bound, and how is one freed of his bonds?
How can one escape from the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation?
Who is subject to karma, and who is beyond karma? Who chants the Name, and inspires others to chant it? ||2||
Who is happy, and who is sad?
Who, as sunmukh, turns toward the Guru, and who, as vaymukh, turns away from the Guru?
How can one meet the Lord? How is one separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3||
What is that Word, by which the wandering mind can be restrained?
What are those teachings, by which we may endure pain and pleasure alike?
What is that lifestyle, by which we may come to meditate on the Supreme Lord? How may we sing the Kirtan of His Praises? ||4||
The Gurmukh is liberated, and the Gurmukh is linked.
The Gurmukh is the spiritual teacher, and the Gurmukh is the preacher.
Blessed is the Gurmukh, the householder and the renunciate. The Gurmukh knows the Lord's Value. ||5||
Egotism is bondage; as Gurmukh, one is emancipated.
The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation.
The Gurmukh performs actions of good karma, and the Gurmukh is beyond karma. Whatever the Gurmukh does, is done in good faith. ||6||
The Gurmukh is happy, while the self-willed manmukh is sad.
The Gurmukh turns toward the Guru, and the self-willed manmukh turns away from the Guru.
The Gurmukh is united with the Lord, while the manmukh is separated from Him. The Gurmukh reveals the way. ||7||
The Guru's Instruction is the Word, by which the wandering mind is restrained.
Through the Guru's Teachings, we can endure pain and pleasure alike.
To live as Gurmukh is the lifestyle by which we come to meditate on the Supreme Lord. The Gurmukh sings the Kirtan of His Praises. ||8||
The Lord Himself created the entire creation.
He Himself acts, and causes others to act. He Himself establishes.
From oneness, He has brought forth the countless multitudes. O Nanak, they shall merge into the One once again. ||9||2||36||




Have a look at the above shabad. If you go onto http://sikhitothemax.com, you can type in whole words and it finds shabads which has that word in it. The above shabad was one of many when I search for “reincarnations”.

In the above shabad, Guru Jee (The fifth Guru- Guru Arjan Dev Ji) asks a question or questions and then answers them. He asks how to ask coming back and forth thorough births and deaths. He then answers this questions amongst others by saying that living the Gurmukh lifestyle and mediating on the one God, we can become liberated and merge with Waheguru.
Hope this helps.
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Noor90
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(Original post by Icecream1)
maajh mehalaa 5 |
koun s mukathaa koun s jugathaa |
koun s giaanee koun s bakathaa |
koun s girehee koun oudhaasee koun s keemath paaeae jeeo |1|
kin bidh baadhaa kin bidh shoottaa |
kin bidh aavan jaavan thoottaa |
koun karam koun nihakaramaa koun s kehai kehaaeae jeeo |2|
koun s sukheeaa koun s dhukheeaa |
koun s sanamukh koun vaemukheeaa |
kin bidh mileeai kin bidh bishurai eih bidh koun pragattaaeae jeeo |3|
koun s akhar jith dhaavath rehathaa |
koun oupadhaes jith dhukh sukh sam sehathaa |
koun s chaal jith paarabreham dhiaaeae kin bidh keerathan gaaeae jeeo |4|
guramukh mukathaa guramukh jugathaa |
guramukh giaanee guramukh bakathaa |
dhann girehee oudhaasee guramukh guramukh keemath paaeae jeeo |5|
houmai baadhaa guramukh shoottaa |
guramukh aavan jaavan thoottaa |
guramukh karam guramukh nihakaramaa guramukh karae s subhaaeae jeeo |6|
guramukh sukheeaa manamukh dhukheeaa |
guramukh sanamukh manamukh vaemukheeaa |
guramukh mileeai manamukh vishurai guramukh bidh pragattaaeae jeeo |7|
guramukh akhar jith dhaavath rehathaa |
guramukh oupadhaes dhukh sukh sam sehathaa |
guramukh chaal jith paarabreham dhiaaeae guramukh keerathan gaaeae jeeo |8|
sagalee banath banaaee aapae |
aapae karae karaaeae thaapae |
eikas thae hoeiou ananthaa naanak eaekas maahi samaaeae jeeo |9|2|36|

Maajh, Fifth Mehl:
Who is liberated, and who is united?
Who is a spiritual teacher, and who is a preacher?
Who is a house-holder, and who is a renunciate? Who can estimate the Lord's Value? ||1||
How is one bound, and how is one freed of his bonds?
How can one escape from the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation?
Who is subject to karma, and who is beyond karma? Who chants the Name, and inspires others to chant it? ||2||
Who is happy, and who is sad?
Who, as sunmukh, turns toward the Guru, and who, as vaymukh, turns away from the Guru?
How can one meet the Lord? How is one separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3||
What is that Word, by which the wandering mind can be restrained?
What are those teachings, by which we may endure pain and pleasure alike?
What is that lifestyle, by which we may come to meditate on the Supreme Lord? How may we sing the Kirtan of His Praises? ||4||
The Gurmukh is liberated, and the Gurmukh is linked.
The Gurmukh is the spiritual teacher, and the Gurmukh is the preacher.
Blessed is the Gurmukh, the householder and the renunciate. The Gurmukh knows the Lord's Value. ||5||
Egotism is bondage; as Gurmukh, one is emancipated.
The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation.
The Gurmukh performs actions of good karma, and the Gurmukh is beyond karma. Whatever the Gurmukh does, is done in good faith. ||6||
The Gurmukh is happy, while the self-willed manmukh is sad.
The Gurmukh turns toward the Guru, and the self-willed manmukh turns away from the Guru.
The Gurmukh is united with the Lord, while the manmukh is separated from Him. The Gurmukh reveals the way. ||7||
The Guru's Instruction is the Word, by which the wandering mind is restrained.
Through the Guru's Teachings, we can endure pain and pleasure alike.
To live as Gurmukh is the lifestyle by which we come to meditate on the Supreme Lord. The Gurmukh sings the Kirtan of His Praises. ||8||
The Lord Himself created the entire creation.
He Himself acts, and causes others to act. He Himself establishes.
From oneness, He has brought forth the countless multitudes. O Nanak, they shall merge into the One once again. ||9||2||36||




Have a look at the above shabad. If you go onto http://sikhitothemax.com, you can type in whole words and it finds shabads which has that word in it. The above shabad was one of many when I search for “reincarnations”.

In the above shabad, Guru Jee (The fifth Guru- Guru Arjan Dev Ji) asks a question or questions and then answers them. He asks how to ask coming back and forth thorough births and deaths. He then answers this questions amongst others by saying that living the Gurmukh lifestyle and mediating on the one God, we can become liberated and merge with Waheguru.
Hope this helps.











Thank you veerji!

So I take it from the above you feel that Sikhi suggests reincarnation is what happens to us after we die.

Here is my interpretation of the above shalok:

1) First off, the terms "reincarnation" and "karma" should not be taken literally. Let us remember that back when the Gurus were preaching their message, most people in India, like today, were Hindus. But back then, they were also extremely uneducated. As a result, the Gurus spoke in the language of the people. They used terms that the illiterate, uneducated and poor masses would be able to understand, since they are a part of their religion (Hinduism). There are parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that talk about burning in hell when you die, but we know that is not what Sikhi teaches. The Gurus used those terms to connect with Muslims they were spreading their message to. Always take talk of reincarnation/karma in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with a grain of salt, it usually alludes to something else.

2) Guru Ji talks about ego being bondage, how the Gurmukh has defeated his/her inner ego and is emancipated and liberated. What does this mean? Well my take on it is this: all of us have jyot, the light of Waheguru within us. This light is is pure and truthful, and connecting with it, we connect with Waheguru. There are 5 evils we must overcome, and ego is the most troublesome of all. One who has defeated his/her inner ego is liberated. It means, one who has overcome their inner ego (and other 4 evils), has connected with their jyot and is now focused on Waheguru. Liberated from what? The maya, the external world. None of it matters anymore, ego is "bondage", the 5 evils bond you to the maya, but overcoming them, one is liberated, one realizes that they are but a drop in the ocean of Waheguru, they have become Gurmukh. "Bondage", "emancipation" and "liberation" all happen in this life, NOT THE NEXT.

3) "The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation." Okay, reincarnation in Sikhi is not the same as in Hinduism. In Hinduism, if you die without having lived a God-centric life, you will go through 8.4 million other life-forms before you become human again and have another shot. In Sikhi, that is not the case. "Coming and going in reincarnation" and the "cycle of births and deaths." What is "death" in Sikhi? Is it when your heart stops beating and your brain shuts off? No, it is not. Real death in Sikhi, like Bhindranwale pointed out, is death of the CONSCIENCE. When you stop standing up for what you believe in, when you stop living a truthful life, you are really dead. Everyday for us is a constant battle between conscience (living truthfully and doing the right thing) and the 5 evils (which act out in the interests of maya, worldly possessions and wealth). The cycle of births and deaths i.e. reincarnation, all plays out in this life. All of us have the potential to be goblins, pigs, lustful elephants, greedy snakes etc...some of us all on the same day! It depends on which of the 5 evils is particularly strong on that day. If today I am feeling overly lustful, I will become an elephant. Tomorrow, I may be feeling particularly greedy, and I will become a snake.

The Gurmukh has escaped the cycle of births and deaths. What Guru Ji is saying here is that one who focuses on the Naam, one who connects with their inner jyot, one who realizes that they are nothing more than a drop in the infinitely large ocean that is Waheguru, that person will no longer be affected by the 5 evils, so that person will no longer fluctuate between personalities (goblin, pig, lustful elephant, greedy snake etc...), and as a result, that person will have broken the cycle of births and deaths, that person will have escaped coming and going in reincarnation. Reincarnation happens in THIS LIFE, you escape the cycle in THIS LIFE, not the next.

4) "The Gurmukh performs actions of good karma, and the Gurmukh is beyond karma." I think this just highlights my point. Guru Ji was talking to Hindus, telling them about how a proper Gurmukh performs actions that (they) consider to be actions of "good karma", actions that will help this person in the next life (reincarnation, karma and the caste system are all linked as they are all Hindu-concepts). By helping in next life, I am talking about that person being born into a high-caste family.

However, Guru Ji also says that the "Gurmukh is BEYOND karma". It means that karma has no meaning for the Gurmukh, nor does it affect him/her. As someone who follows Guru Jis teachings, Vedic-concepts such as karma have no place in the Gurmukhs life. Guru Angad Dev Ji told us that because of Vedic-philosophy, the "entire world wanders lost in superstition". Being a Gurmukh, a follower of the True Guru, you dispose of these empty rituals, beliefs in caste, reincarnation, karma, they do not affect you, you are BEYOND them. Guru Ji here is pointing out that karma is not real, that if you follow His message, you can spend your life doing good deeds out of "good faith", not because you want to be reincarnated into a high-caste family. Gurmukh is BEYOND karma= a follower of the True Guru does not hold a Vedic concept such as karma to be true. Sikhi rejects karma.

So that is my take on it. If you feel I have said something wrong, please point it out.
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P.Kaur
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(Original post by Noor90)
Thank you veerji!

So I take it from the above you feel that Sikhi suggests reincarnation is what happens to us after we die.

Here is my interpretation of the above shalok:

1) First off, the terms "reincarnation" and "karma" should not be taken literally. Let us remember that back when the Gurus were preaching their message, most people in India, like today, were Hindus. But back then, they were also extremely uneducated. As a result, the Gurus spoke in the language of the people. They used terms that the illiterate, uneducated and poor masses would be able to understand, since they are a part of their religion (Hinduism). There are parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that talk about burning in hell when you die, but we know that is not what Sikhi teaches. The Gurus used those terms to connect with Muslims they were spreading their message to. Always take talk of reincarnation/karma in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with a grain of salt, it usually alludes to something else.

2) Guru Ji talks about ego being bondage, how the Gurmukh has defeated his/her inner ego and is emancipated and liberated. What does this mean? Well my take on it is this: all of us have jyot, the light of Waheguru within us. This light is is pure and truthful, and connecting with it, we connect with Waheguru. There are 5 evils we must overcome, and ego is the most troublesome of all. One who has defeated his/her inner ego is liberated. It means, one who has overcome their inner ego (and other 4 evils), has connected with their jyot and is now focused on Waheguru. Liberated from what? The maya, the external world. None of it matters anymore, ego is "bondage", the 5 evils bond you to the maya, but overcoming them, one is liberated, one realizes that they are but a drop in the ocean of Waheguru, they have become Gurmukh. "Bondage", "emancipation" and "liberation" all happen in this life, NOT THE NEXT.

3) "The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation." Okay, reincarnation in Sikhi is not the same as in Hinduism. In Hinduism, if you die without having lived a God-centric life, you will go through 8.4 million other life-forms before you become human again and have another shot. In Sikhi, that is not the case. "Coming and going in reincarnation" and the "cycle of births and deaths." What is "death" in Sikhi? Is it when your heart stops beating and your brain shuts off? No, it is not. Real death in Sikhi, like Bhindranwale pointed out, is death of the CONSCIENCE. When you stop standing up for what you believe in, when you stop living a truthful life, you are really dead. Everyday for us is a constant battle between conscience (living truthfully and doing the right thing) and the 5 evils (which act out in the interests of maya, worldly possessions and wealth). The cycle of births and deaths i.e. reincarnation, all plays out in this life. All of us have the potential to be goblins, pigs, lustful elephants, greedy snakes etc...some of us all on the same day! It depends on which of the 5 evils is particularly strong on that day. If today I am feeling overly lustful, I will become an elephant. Tomorrow, I may be feeling particularly greedy, and I will become a snake.

The Gurmukh has escaped the cycle of births and deaths. What Guru Ji is saying here is that one who focuses on the Naam, one who connects with their inner jyot, one who realizes that they are nothing more than a drop in the infinitely large ocean that is Waheguru, that person will no longer be affected by the 5 evils, so that person will no longer fluctuate between personalities (goblin, pig, lustful elephant, greedy snake etc...), and as a result, that person will have broken the cycle of births and deaths, that person will have escaped coming and going in reincarnation. Reincarnation happens in THIS LIFE, you escape the cycle in THIS LIFE, not the next.

4) "The Gurmukh performs actions of good karma, and the Gurmukh is beyond karma." I think this just highlights my point. Guru Ji was talking to Hindus, telling them about how a proper Gurmukh performs actions that (they) consider to be actions of "good karma", actions that will help this person in the next life (reincarnation, karma and the caste system are all linked as they are all Hindu-concepts). By helping in next life, I am talking about that person being born into a high-caste family.

However, Guru Ji also says that the "Gurmukh is BEYOND karma". It means that karma has no meaning for the Gurmukh, nor does it affect him/her. As someone who follows Guru Jis teachings, Vedic-concepts such as karma have no place in the Gurmukhs life. Guru Angad Dev Ji told us that because of Vedic-philosophy, the "entire world wanders lost in superstition". Being a Gurmukh, a follower of the True Guru, you dispose of these empty rituals, beliefs in caste, reincarnation, karma, they do not affect you, you are BEYOND them. Guru Ji here is pointing out that karma is not real, that if you follow His message, you can spend your life doing good deeds out of "good faith", not because you want to be reincarnated into a high-caste family. Gurmukh is BEYOND karma= a follower of the True Guru does not hold a Vedic concept such as karma to be true. Sikhi rejects karma.

So that is my take on it. If you feel I have said something wrong, please point it out.
With respect, I have to wonder why you have come to ask the question about reincarnation. It is clear that you have a set belief and will interpret every shabad to fit that belief. I believe strongly in reincarnation and the concept of karam, and I believe Gurbani makes specific truths clear- there is a consensus on such matters within Sikhi. But it's okay if you don't hold that belief- in fact, it makes little difference, because such issues are irrelevant when it comes to practicing Sikhi. Gurbani can be interpreted in many ways, and in regards to this issue I don't think we'll come to a point where your interpretation will fit mine/ other people's.
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Noor90
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#808
(Original post by P.Kaur)
With respect, I have to wonder why you have come to ask the question about reincarnation. It is clear that you have a set belief and will interpret every shabad to fit that belief. I believe strongly in reincarnation and the concept of karam, and I believe Gurbani makes specific truths clear- there is a consensus on such matters within Sikhi. But it's okay if you don't hold that belief- in fact, it makes little difference, because such issues are irrelevant when it comes to practicing Sikhi. Gurbani can be interpreted in many ways, and in regards to this issue I don't think we'll come to a point where your interpretation will fit mine/ other people's.
Bhenji,

I simply wanted to find out if there were other Sikhs on TSR who did not hold reincarnation as truth in Sikhi, and I also wanted to know if maybe my interpretation was wrong by conversing with people who do think reincarnation is what Sikhi advocates. That's why I always ask in my posts for people to point out if something I said was wrong, because I want to know for sure if what I believe is true. I agree that most Sikhs do believe in reincarnation, but I would pin it down to the lack of alternatives being taught i.e. everyone always gets told that Sikhi teaches reincarnation, no one mentions that there are alternative view points out there. But seeing as Sikhi is not centralized, people are free to interpret Gurbani as they see fit, and reincarnation does not make sense to me, from a philosophical or scientific perspective, so I do not believe in it. In the end though, as you mentioned, Sikhs are free to believe what they want about the afterlife, Guru Ji taught that the important thing is how you live this one, and I think we can all come to an agreement on how that should be done
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Phantom Lord
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#809
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#809
What's the reason Sikhs in India have a very high rate of female infanticide, much higher than the other main religions in India?
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Icecream1
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#810
(Original post by Noor90)
Guru Ji taught that the important thing is how you live this one, and I think we can all come to an agreement on how that should be done
This is the key message, live this life to the max as a Gurmukh, jaap naam and merge with Waheguru.
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Icecream1
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#811
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#811
(Original post by Phantom Lord)
What's the reason Sikhs in India have a very high rate of female infanticide, much higher than the other main religions in India?


I think the key part of the answer was in your question “India”, where the thinking of boys being favourable to girls is down to the culture and not the religion, otherwise you would see this trend of female infanticide evident over the globe, wherever Sikhs live.

In Sikhi, women are as equal as men. Women can lead the service and are able to do anything men can do in the Gurdwara.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, it says:

“why slander her, who gives birth to great kings.”
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navarre
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#812
Do Sikhs have any dietary laws, eg restrictions on meats like beef?
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Phantom Lord
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#813
(Original post by Icecream1)
I think the key part of the answer was in your question “India”, where the thinking of boys being favourable to girls is down to the culture and not the religion, otherwise you would see this trend of female infanticide evident over the globe, wherever Sikhs live.

In Sikhi, women are as equal as men. Women can lead the service and are able to do anything men can do in the Gurdwara.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, it says:

“why slander her, who gives birth to great kings.”
But how come it's so high among Sikhs compared to the other religions, when they all have roughly the same culture in India? Look at the child sex ratio on page 2.

There is evidence it happens in countries over the globe where Sikhs have migrated
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...article544119/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7123753.stm
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Icecream1
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#814
[QUOTE=Phantom Lord;43582414]But how come it's so high among Sikhs compared to the other religions, when they all have roughly the same culture in India? Look at the child sex ratio on page 2.

There is evidence it happens in countries over the globe where Sikhs have migrated
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...article544119/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7123753.stm[/QUOTE]

I think if you look at where the most Sikhs live, Punjab, the culture is of agriculture. In this culture, they would want a boy to continue to the family name and take over the land after the father eventually dies. There is also the fact that the daughter would get married and move to where her husband lives.
The sources you have quoted are quite old now so I would like to see if the numbers have improved from then.
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Icecream1
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#815
(Original post by navarre)
Do Sikhs have any dietary laws, e.g. restrictions on meats like beef?
Sikhs are not supposed to eat any animal meats (chicken, lamb, beef, pork, fish and egg etc.) but can eat cheese and milk etc.
They are also not supposed to consume alcohol or take drugs.
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P.Kaur
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#816
(Original post by Noor90)
Bhenji,

I simply wanted to find out if there were other Sikhs on TSR who did not hold reincarnation as truth in Sikhi, and I also wanted to know if maybe my interpretation was wrong by conversing with people who do think reincarnation is what Sikhi advocates. That's why I always ask in my posts for people to point out if something I said was wrong, because I want to know for sure if what I believe is true. I agree that most Sikhs do believe in reincarnation, but I would pin it down to the lack of alternatives being taught i.e. everyone always gets told that Sikhi teaches reincarnation, no one mentions that there are alternative view points out there. But seeing as Sikhi is not centralized, people are free to interpret Gurbani as they see fit, and reincarnation does not make sense to me, from a philosophical or scientific perspective, so I do not believe in it. In the end though, as you mentioned, Sikhs are free to believe what they want about the afterlife, Guru Ji taught that the important thing is how you live this one, and I think we can all come to an agreement on how that should be done
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Noor90
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#817
(Original post by Phantom Lord)
What's the reason Sikhs in India have a very high rate of female infanticide, much higher than the other main religions in India?
(Original post by Phantom Lord)
But how come it's so high among Sikhs compared to the other religions, when they all have roughly the same culture in India? Look at the child sex ratio on page 2.

There is evidence it happens in countries over the globe where Sikhs have migrated
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...article544119/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7123753.stm
Punjab does have a different culture from the rest of India, it is not the same.

Most Punjabis are involved in agricultural work. Families own land and need the boys to continue to care for the property when the parents get old. That is one reason that boys are favored over girls.

The other reason is that when a girl gets married, the family of the girl is expected to pay a dowry to the family of the boy, usually in the form of money. This is against the teachings of Sikhi; in Hinduism, the girl's side usually paid dowry to the boy's side and in Islam, the boy's side usually paid dowry to the girl's side (a prospective groom must "buy" the girl from her "wali" i.e. caretaker/guardian, usually the father). Muslim girls cannot get married without the consent of the wali (again, usually father), so grooms must pay to marry them.

Sikhism outright forbids this practice, girl's family is not to give anything to the boy's family and the boy's side is not supposed to give anything to the girl's side, but unfortunately, because of culture, this usually is not the case, the girl's family ends up having to give money to the boy's side due to the influence of Hinduism. So girls are seen as a burden and not wanted. The girl's family usually also has to pay for the entire wedding by themselves.

As for those statistics, you can see that if female infanticide happens among Sikhs in the west, it is limited to those Sikhs who move here from Punjab. You won't find western-born Sikhs carrying out that barbaric practice because they were brought up in a different culture.

The killing of girls is cultural, not religious. The tenth Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, outright forbade Sikhs from associating with anyone who killed their infant daughters. We aren't even allowed to be in the same room as other people who do it, forget about us doing it ourselves lol.
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Amanbabbar./
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#818
(Original post by f1mad)
"many"..?

I'm yet to walk into a Sikh persons house that posses such things.
Lol :lol: I was thinking the same thing. I am Sikh and I have lots of Sikh family friends and family in which I visit their houses very often. I've never seen any statues and paintings etc, of Hindu Gods. :confused:
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Noor90
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#819
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#819
(Original post by bruneljatt)
These rules were originally for males, as they were usually in the Khalsa, as opposed to women, which became more common in later sects.
Not true at all.

The rules, keeping the 5 K's, have been the same and applied equally to both men and women since day one.

On Vaisakhi Day 1699, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not stand in front of the Saad Sangat at Anandpur Sahib and say "I want a male head."

He stood in front of those Sikhs and said simply "I want a head." Had a woman got up, he would have called her up on stage. Now, if you understand the culture of Punjab, you would understand just why there were no women in the original Panj Pyare, it had nothing to do with male vs female. After the first 5 Pyare and Guru Gobind Singh Ji had taken Amrit, Amrit was issued to the rest of the Sikhs at Anandpur Sahib as well, male AND female.

Mai Bhaggo was a baptized Sikh woman during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, she led an army of Sikhs into battle against an enormously larger enemy, she bore the 5 K's, how can you say those rules became more common in later sects?

Are you a Sikh?
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Phantom Lord
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#820
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#820
(Original post by Noor90)
Punjab does have a different culture from the rest of India, it is not the same.
I know that, but it basically has the same anti-woman culture as the rest of India.
(Original post by Noor90)
Most Punjabis are involved in agricultural work. Families own land and need the boys to continue to care for the property when the parents get old. That is one reason that boys are favored over girls.
If you look at that document I posted earlier, it shows that only 16.8% of Sikhs are agricultural workers which is actually significantly lower than the average of India which is 26.5%. And why don't Punjabis in the neighbouring country mass abort their girls?
Even if Sikhs were massively overrepresented in agriculture, that isn't an accuse to mass abort or kill girls. There are lots of areas of the world where agricultural work is mainly practised and they don't resort to female infanticide.


(Original post by Noor90)
As for those statistics, you can see that if female infanticide happens among Sikhs in the west, it is limited to those Sikhs who move here from Punjab. You won't find western-born Sikhs carrying out that barbaric practice because they were brought up in a different culture.
Female infanticide is actually on the increase amongst Indians (and Sikhs) in the west, and in India the more educated and rich ones are more likely to do it.
There is evidence that British born Indians do it
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...-foetuses.html
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