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The Commons Bar Mk XII - MHoC Chat Thread watch

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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    I think the PLP realise now that they don't hold all the cards and they're going to have to compromise. If they agree to let a leftie onto the ballot in return for Corbyn resigning I believe we can get away from the impasse.
    Corbyn is neither electable nor removable.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Corbyn is neither electable nor removable.
    Hence the pressure on him to resign. Corbyn doesn't want to go on forever or allow the Tories to win, he just wants a Labour Party that stands up for its principles again. That's where the room for us to move is; he has to be allowed a way out where his ideas can still suceed without him personally implementing them.

    If any of the bookies create such a market (or there is one I'm not seeing), I'd be very tempted to bet on Clive Lewis to be Prime Minister after the next election. As it is, I think I'm going to have a flutter on him being the next Labour leader at 18/1.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Hence the pressure on him to resign. Corbyn doesn't want to go on forever or allow the Tories to win, he just wants a Labour Party that stands up for its principles again. That's where the room for us to move is; he has to be allowed a way out where his ideas can still suceed without him personally implementing them.

    If any of the bookies create such a market (or there is one I'm not seeing), I'd be very tempted to bet on Clive Lewis to be Prime Minister after the next election. As it is, I think I'm going to have a flutter on him being the next Labour leader at 18/1.
    You're hoping for something that isn't happening, he isn't going to resign without choosing a successor who will take over, he will leave on his terms, not the PLP's
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Interesting, isn't it that the Conservatives will be bringing us our second female Prime Minister and will have a vote now between two female contenders - unprecedented as far as I'm aware. What this shows us is that the nonsense spouted by feminists such as Harriet Harman about all-female shortlists is just that nonsense. The Conservatives have proven today that it doesn't matter what gender you are - if you work hard, you will succeed. Perhaps Labour should now take note and realise that having all female shortlists doesn't solve anything.
    Despite the fact that Labour have more female MPs than every other party put together? (99 labour female mps to 92 other female mps). Gender quotas have helped to address an imbalance in CLP selections where a predominately white male membership elected white male candidates to stand for Parliament, no matter how good the female or non-white candidates were. Labour's issue is parachuting in candidates who have little to no connection with the area imo.

    We've also seen an increase in females in leadership roles since the mid 90s, with two of our last four deputy leaders being female, and more women running for leadership positions, a stark change to when Barabra Castle told a support in the 1970s she wouldn't be leader as she was a woman.

    As one feminist remarked to me, and I know it is a common thought, it is a very odd time when they would rather have an old, middle class white male in charge than a woman, and I know this was a common thought in America and over here (in regards to Sanders v Clinton and Corbyn v Cooper/Eagle)
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    The Green Party is led by a woman, as are Plaid Cymru, the SNP, the DUP. *Labour and the Lib Dems have never been led by a woman, nor has UKIP.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You're hoping for something that isn't happening, he isn't going to resign without choosing a successor who will take over, he will leave on his terms, not the PLP's
    That's what I'm talking about - him choosing a successor, and the PLP agreeing to put said potential successor onto the ballot in return for his resignation. Then we could hopefully have a free, fair leadership election, come out with a candidate who lacks Corbyn's baggage and have a much better chance at unity. I'd like to see the Eton Boys or Grammar Girls sneer across the Commons at Lewis or Jarvis and tell them that they aren't in touch with normal people, don't know what a honest day's work is or aren't bothered about risking our national security.

    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Despite the fact that Labour have more female MPs than every other party put together? (99 labour female mps to 92 other female mps). Gender quotas have helped to address an imbalance in CLP selections where a predominately white male membership elected white male candidates to stand for Parliament, no matter how good the female or non-white candidates were. Labour's issue is parachuting in candidates who have little to no connection with the area imo.

    We've also seen an increase in females in leadership roles since the mid 90s, with two of our last four deputy leaders being female, and more women running for leadership positions, a stark change to when Barabra Castle told a support in the 1970s she wouldn't be leader as she was a woman.

    As one feminist remarked to me, and I know it is a common thought, it is a very odd time when they would rather have an old, middle class white male in charge than a woman, and I know this was a common thought in America and over here (in regards to Sanders v Clinton and Corbyn v Cooper/Eagle)
    One thing I would argue, in relation to your last point, is that I feel all women shortlists have led to a lot of female MPs who perhaps aren't as comitted to the party's traditions or values and are much closer to liberal, progressive centrists than those who won through in open selection contests. Few have the union background many of our other MPs come from and many seem to be focussed on a political career rather than coming to it through another field. Perhaps it's correlation rather than causation (given the 'Blair Babes' we got with the first batch where the selection was obviously influenced by the most centrist leader we've ever had) but it is perhaps a cause for concern especially as so many seem to have really struggled to step up to senior frontbench roles or become realistic leadership contenders - the closest, Angela Eagle, predates all-woman shortlists.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    The Green Party is led by a woman, as are Plaid Cymru, the SNP, the DUP. *Labour and the Lib Dems have never been led by a woman, nor has UKIP.
    Well, Labour's had two female acting leaders. And Suzzanne Evans led UKIP for a weekend once
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    Andy Burnham should be leading Labour.
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    No matter who becomes Conservative leader, no LGBT person nor anyone who calls themselves our ally can in good conscience support the party under their reign. Conservative MPs have shown once and for all that, underneath the new liberal rhetoric, they care as little as ever for our rights and regard us as no more than a nuisance whose very existence annoys their core voters.
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    Bornblue


    thoughts on this post i just found on tsr?

    Finally on the question of war crimes, there is no basis or justification to claim Tony Blair carried out war crimes. The people who make this accusation often don't understand the difference between a war crime and a crime against peace. War crimes are things like massacres, mass rapes, mass torture programmes and the like. Nobody has provided any evidence that Tony Blair ordered the British military to do any of these things. As for a crime against peace, in 2003 the International Criminal Court had no jurisdiction over crimes against peace; that jurisdiction was only conferred in 2010 when they agreed a definition and is not retroactive. The only body that has the competence to declare a crime against peace has occurred in 2003 is the UN Security Council, on which the UK has a veto vote. Saddam's repeated non-compliance with the treaties and UN resolutions I have outlined provide a strong basis in law for the invasion, as do our Genocide Convention obligations. The war was not carried out for territorial or imperial aggrandisement (and all the accusations about it being a war for all look ridiculous in light of the fact that the US stood by while the democratically-elected Iraqi government gave the oil contracts primarily to Chinese companies; in fact, US troops were guarding the signing ceremony at which the Iraqi Oil Minister signed with the Chinese state oil company). On the basis of these facts, I see no basis for any charge of a moral crime against peace (given an actual crime against peace is legally impossible).
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    The Green Party is led by a woman, as are Plaid Cymru, the SNP, the DUP. *Labour and the Lib Dems have never been led by a woman, nor has UKIP.
    Scottish labour is led by a woman.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)

    As one feminist remarked to me, and I know it is a common thought, it is a very odd time when they would rather have an old, middle class white male in charge than a woman, and I know this was a common thought in America and over here (in regards to Sanders v Clinton and Corbyn v Cooper/Eagle)
    Is it? If feminists do indeed care about gender equality then they would vote for a person of their merits, and not on their genitalia.

    Your post would indicate that this feminist would discriminate against a candidate based on their:

    -age
    -class
    -race

    Which is frankly quite reprehensible.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Scottish labour is led by a woman.
    Both the Lib Dems and Labour have had female devolved leaders.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    The Green Party is led by a woman, as are Plaid Cymru, the SNP, the DUP. *Labour and the Lib Dems have never been led by a woman, nor has UKIP.
    So a very minor party and 3 regional parties, the Tories remain the only major national party

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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    Is it? If feminists do indeed care about gender equality then they would vote for a person of their merits, and not on their genitalia.

    Your post would indicate that this feminist would discriminate against a candidate based on their:

    -age
    -class
    -race

    Which is frankly quite reprehensible.
    In most cases, I agree entirely. But surely there is an argument that it doesn't quite work for our politics - the job of Parliament is to represent the nation, which it could not adequately do if it is dominated by white, able-bodied, middle or upper class straigh cisgender men.
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    Bornblue * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Finally on the question of war crimes, there is no basis or justification to claim Tony Blair carried out war crimes. The people who make this accusation often don't understand the difference between a war crime and a crime against peace. War crimes are things like massacres, mass rapes, mass torture programmes and the like. Nobody has provided any evidence that Tony Blair ordered the British military to do any of these things.
    That's simply wrong. War crimes include the crime of aggression, which it is very arguable that the Iraq war was.

    *
    *As for a crime against peace, in 2003 the International Criminal Court had no jurisdiction over crimes against peace; that jurisdiction was only conferred in 2010 when they agreed a definition and is not retroactive. The only body that has the competence to declare a crime against peace has occurred in 2003 is the UN Security Council, on which the UK has a veto vote. Saddam's repeated non-compliance with the treaties and UN resolutions I have outlined provide a strong basis in law for the invasion, as do our Genocide Convention obligations.

    No, that doesn't provide a strong basis in law. There was no UNSC authorisation and it was not in self defence. There are no other legal justifications for the use of force.


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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    In most cases, I agree entirely. But surely there is an argument that it doesn't quite work for our politics - the job of Parliament is to represent the nation, which it could not adequately do if it is dominated by white, able-bodied, middle or upper class straigh cisgender men.
    Which is a nonesense argument, you can represent somebody without perfectly fitting their demographic. I notice a lack of under 30s, especially under 18s, and over 70s.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Which is a nonesense argument, you can represent somebody without perfectly fitting their demographic. I notice a lack of under 30s, especially under 18s, and over 70s.
    On the other hand, all the MPs will know what it's like to have been young, and know they themselves will hopefully grow to be old. They are highly unlikely, barring reincarnation, to ever find themselves female, black or gay, and nor do they have the experience or in many cases understanding of the issues these groups face (especially when looking at the intersection of race/gender/sexuality based oppression with class oppression).
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Despite the fact that Labour have more female MPs than every other party put together? (99 labour female mps to 92 other female mps). Gender quotas have helped to address an imbalance in CLP selections where a predominately white male membership elected white male candidates to stand for Parliament, no matter how good the female or non-white candidates were. Labour's issue is parachuting in candidates who have little to no connection with the area imo.

    We've also seen an increase in females in leadership roles since the mid 90s, with two of our last four deputy leaders being female, and more women running for leadership positions, a stark change to when Barabra Castle told a support in the 1970s she wouldn't be leader as she was a woman.

    As one feminist remarked to me, and I know it is a common thought, it is a very odd time when they would rather have an old, middle class white male in charge than a woman, and I know this was a common thought in America and over here (in regards to Sanders v Clinton and Corbyn v Cooper/Eagle)
    because people dont give a **** about this stuff, only batshit crazy feminists do. They want corbyn and Bernie in because they're socialists ffs.

    Why is it odd people having a preference that isn't based on gender?
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    On the other hand, all the MPs will know what it's like to have been young, and know they themselves will hopefully grow to be old. They are highly unlikely, barring reincarnation, to ever find themselves female, black or gay, and nor do they have the experience or in many cases understanding of the issues these groups face (especially when looking at the intersection of race/gender/sexuality based oppression with class oppression).
    which is bs
 
 
 
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