The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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KingStannis
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#8321
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#8321
(Original post by Green_Pink)
That's exactly what we heard in 2010. Oh, after this, people won't vote for the Lib Dems again, they'll all come home to Labour and we'll win 40% of the vote. For a while in 2012 or so that looked possible. Then they all went off elsewhere again and that was the end of that. You can't rely on people tactically voting for the lesser of two evils, the consistently bad turnouts show they simply won't. You need to actually inspire them and show them how you're going to make their lives better. It isn't that difficult. I read Labour's manifesto, and I thought about it from my perspective (a young student) and those of my parents (one working part time on a low wage in a ****ty job, the other long-term unemployed). There was sod all in there that would actually improve our lives one iota. Unsurprisingly, not a single one of us voted for Labour despite all being strongly opposed to the Tory government. Industry may be smaller, but on the other hand you have a huge pool of students, unemployed people, and those in low paid, insecure service sector jobs in addition to the public sector and trade unionists and liberal young professionals. Those who want to aspire but for whom a comfy £40k a year job and their own home is more of a distant dream than a realistic goal.
The liberals are a government toppling force anymore.

We lost in 2010 because people thought that the crash was labour's fault.

When i read the manifesto I thought "this is all for the minimum wage workers". There was nothing in it for the lower middle class. My family's income is about 34k. I'll go to university and hopefully get an 18k job. I want to ensure that as I progress in my career there's 30K jobs available. The lower middle class are being ignored because we don't fit into the simple narrative of "rich vs poor". That was Ed's mistake.

Doesn't matter what students want. They won't vote for it regardless because all of them are too lazy.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by Green_Pink)
They don't need to take out the SNP. They should completely, totally ignore them, don't spend a penny on trying to win back Scotland. Concentrate on getting the vote out to beat the Tories in a few key English seats, be more open and honest and then invite the SNP to vote them down if it's a hung parliament in 2020. The SNP won't want to be seen to let the Tories back in.
Without Scotland they're practically powerless. They can't form a majority anymore without it. They can't even get near anymore without it. The best they can manage is highly unstable government with the SNP, and we saw how the electorate reacted to that prospect.
They can either stay where they are and lose even more seats, or shift right to win Tory seats and make the SNP not want to work with them either. Meanwhile, the northern Irish unionists and UKIP will still back the Tories of needed and, depending on leader at the time, so not for a while, the lib dems too.

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Green_Pink
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(Original post by KingStannis)
The liberals are a government toppling force anymore.

We lost in 2010 because people thought that the crash was labour's fault.

When i read the manifesto I thought "this is all for the minimum wage workers". There was nothing in it for the lower middle class. My family's income is about 34k. I'll go to university and hopefully get an 18k job. I want to ensure that as I progress in my career there's 30K jobs available. The lower middle class are being ignored because we don't fit into the simple narrative of "rich vs poor". That was Ed's mistake.

Doesn't matter what students want. They won't vote for it regardless because all of them are too lazy.
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Without Scotland they're practically powerless. They can't form a majority anymore without it. They can't even get near anymore without it. The best they can manage is highly unstable government with the SNP, and we saw how the electorate reacted to that prospect.
They can either stay where they are and lose even more seats, or shift right to win Tory seats and make the SNP not want to work with them either. Meanwhile, the northern Irish unionists and UKIP will still back the Tories of needed and, depending on leader at the time, so not for a while, the lib dems too.

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Students aren't lazy. They just don't care for and see past a lot of the nonsense Labour come out with. And Labour has to take the blame for the electorate forming that opinion, because just like with everything else they decided to accept the Conservative narrative rather than challenge it. They're weak. Really weak. And people will not vote for a weak party to run their country.
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KingStannis
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(Original post by Green_Pink)
Students aren't lazy. They just don't care for and see past a lot of the nonsense Labour come out with. And Labour has to take the blame for the electorate forming that opinion, because just like with everything else they decided to accept the Conservative narrative rather than challenge it. They're weak. Really weak. And people will not vote for a weak party to run their country.
No. Not voting is always, always your own fault.

In the contrary, labour are taking a strong position. The retarded radical leftism of the SNP is an easy narrative. The stability under the Tories is an easy narrative. What we're offering is hard, and yet the third way is the correct economic answer.
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Green_Pink
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(Original post by KingStannis)
No. Not voting is always, always your own fault.

In the contrary, labour are taking a strong position. The retarded radical leftism of the SNP is an easy narrative. The stability under the Tories is an easy narrative. What we're offering is hard, and yet the third way is the correct economic answer.
Doesn't really matter whose fault it is. Going around blaming them won't help. Convincing them to support you will and it's definitely possible.

Thing is, it doesn't matter one jot how good or otherwise your economic plan is if you're not in government to implement it. A good narrative is essential. Your narrative seriously, seriously sucks. "We admit that we spent too much money, let in too many immigrants and caused the financial crash. We're very sorry. But we've changed. We promise. So vote for us!". It doesn't convince anyone.
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KingStannis
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(Original post by Green_Pink)
Doesn't really matter whose fault it is. Going around blaming them won't help. Convincing them to support you will and it's definitely possible.

Thing is, it doesn't matter one jot how good or otherwise your economic plan is if you're not in government to implement it. A good narrative is essential. Your narrative seriously, seriously sucks. "We admit that we spent too much money, let in too many immigrants and caused the financial crash. We're very sorry. But we've changed. We promise. So vote for us!". It doesn't convince anyone.
And we can convince those people.

That's Ed Milibandism not the Blairism you don't want us to go back to. You want us to go further left than Ed. That's the narrative you've described but on cocaine.
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PetrosAC
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#8327
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A late night drink anyone?

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Jammy Duel
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#8328
(Original post by PetrosAC)
A late night drink anyone?

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I shall join you in fake drinks to accompany my real drinks given you had the cross party decency to join me the other week.

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Jammy Duel
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My "exams are over" cigar isn't too nice :/
Lasting a good hour though

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PetrosAC
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
I shall join you in fake drinks to accompany my real drinks given you had the cross party decency to join me the other week.

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No matter what party you are, we can always share a fake drink or 5

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tehFrance
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#8331
(Original post by KingStannis)
My family's income is about 34k.
Christ! Despite losing my job last week, my family income is an awful lot higher than that with myself and my SO, how can your family live?

(Original post by Jammy Duel)
My "exams are over" cigar isn't too nice :/
What brand of cigar is it?
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Aph
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#8332
(Original post by tehFrance)
Christ! Despite losing my job last week, my family income is an awful lot higher than that with myself and my SO, how can your family live?


What brand of cigar is it?
But your dad's the boss isn't he?
And actually £34k is quite a lot.
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tehFrance
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(Original post by Aph)
But your dad's the boss isn't he?
And actually £34k is quite a lot.
I don't work for my father... I've had my own jobs and businesses (dissolved) which has served me well financially.

How is it a lot?
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PetrosAC
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(Original post by tehFrance)
I don't work for my father... I've had my own jobs and businesses (dissolved) which has served me well financially.

How is it a lot?
If my Citizenship teacher last year was right, to be classed as rich in the UK, you would have an income of £36k. My family gets by on £20k, but to be fair the council help a little.

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TeeEff
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(Original post by Aph)
But your dad's the boss isn't he?
And actually £34k is quite a lot.
Eh, £34k is a lot? :confused: I'm pretty sure it's under the median household income in this country.
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PetrosAC
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(Original post by The Financier)
Eh, £34k is a lot? :confused: I'm pretty sure it's under the median household income in this country.
Not sure about household but individually its £21k.

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Aph
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(Original post by tehFrance)
I don't work for my father... I've had my own jobs and businesses (dissolved) which has served me well financially.

How is it a lot?
do you still own your Russian club?
(Original post by The Financier)
Eh, £34k is a lot? :confused: I'm pretty sure it's under the median household income in this country.
The mean is about £25k In this country, can't find the median but it won't be much more. £34k is a lot...
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PetrosAC
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(Original post by Aph)
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(Original post by The Financier)
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(Original post by tehFrance)
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TeeEff
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That table is based on 2006 data and has not been updated for some time.

This telegraph article suggests that in 2014-15, "A family with two children is now earning on average £31,000 after tax." Sure, 34k is slightly over but I wouldn't class it as being particularly a lot.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by The Financier)
That table is based on 2006 data and has not been updated for some time.

This telegraph article suggests that in 2014-15, "A family with two children is now earning on average £31,000 after tax." Sure, 34k is slightly over but I wouldn't class it as being particularly a lot.
Since Stannis never mentioned tax that's probably a pre-tax salary anyway so your probably looking at about £35k being the pre-tax average anyway. Equally that 06 figure was net so pre tax you'd be looking at £22k plus a cumulative rise of a few grand in the years since.

All very achievable for most people. I myself was born to parents on welfare so if i individually get to £30k+ and can own my own home i'll be pretty happy. Would prefer a household income in excess of £60k with the current tax system though ideally so as to live very comfortably with investments and the like.
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