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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Excluding grants, subsidies, no trade tariffs.
    So you're saying that 19bn (or whatever the exact figure is) minus 9.5bn (or whatever the exact figure is) times 25 is not in excess of 205bn?
    Do you also deny that there are only 6 Scottish MEPs?
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    At the risk of being called a traitor I'm rather hoping raonic beats Murray.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    At the risk of being called a traitor I'm rather hoping raonic beats Murray.
    Well, we get a member of the commonwealth winning instead of somebody who if they could would live off on an island in the North sea to be grumpy and have tantrums.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    At the risk of being called a traitor I'm rather hoping raonic beats Murray.
    Same here. I'm English, not Scottish so I want the underdog to win.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Well, we get a member of the commonwealth winning instead of somebody who if they could would live off on an island in the North sea to be grumpy and have tantrums.
    Hear, hear. I've never agreed with you so much Jammy.
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    Same here. I'm English, not Scottish so I want the underdog to win.
    Nationality has nothing to do with it and I thought you were smarter then to fall for nationalistic tendencies. I'm only backing him because even though he's the underdog he keeps fighting and the crowd is against him.
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    Tennis is not a team sport, so it's not like supporting a national team. Support whom you like.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Constantly expecting to go to war or wanting to fight is a bad position. Ultimately all wars end in negotiations and not anhialation so whist it's good to be ready to defend yourself you shouldn't be constantly expecting to use force.
    The action of war itself is not at issue (mindless aggression is indeed a bad thing) however i see nothing wrong in the strong defending or improving the lot of the weak, that i believe is indeed a noble reason to fight.

    At a state level there are obviously some nations which can afford pacifism (Switzerland, Ireland, Scotland if independent) because they find themselves in such a position that they would be defended regardless of their own will (or lack of it) but i find the notion of a nation such as the UK adopting a pacifist approach to be both dangerous and morally unjust.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Nationality has nothing to do with it and I thought you were smarter then to fall for nationalistic tendencies. I'm only backing him because even though he's the underdog he keeps fighting and the crowd is against him.
    I have to admit, I don't think nationality should be associated with sport as much as it is. I'm backing him because of Murray's bad attitude.
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    Murray's won. How annoying.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    The action of war itself is not at issue (mindless aggression is indeed a bad thing) however i see nothing wrong in the strong defending or improving the lot of the weak, that i believe is indeed a noble reason to fight.

    At a state level there are obviously some nations which can afford pacifism (Switzerland, Ireland, Scotland if independent) because they find themselves in such a position that they would be defended regardless of their own will (or lack of it) but i find the notion of a nation such as the UK adopting a pacifist approach to be both dangerous and morally unjust.
    Defending yourself is, indeed good. Defending the weak depends how you do it (any of our intervention in the Middle East spring to mind.) and nobility shouldn't have anything to do with it. We shouldn't go to war seeking glory or pride. War and fighting are bloody and messy and should be avoided at all costs. Only when there is no other option should we go to war.

    Switzerland could probably afford it anyway because should they be invaided they can easily defend themselves.
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    Woo! Murray!
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Defending yourself is, indeed good. Defending the weak depends how you do it (any of our intervention in the Middle East spring to mind.) and nobility shouldn't have anything to do with it. We shouldn't go to war seeking glory or pride. War and fighting are bloody and messy and should be avoided at all costs. Only when there is no other option should we go to war.

    Switzerland could probably afford it anyway because should they be invaided they can easily defend themselves.
    Imagine we never went into Libya and Gadaffi slaughtered a million Libyans.. is that a cost you'd have payed to avoid war?
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Imagine we never went into Libya and Gadaffi slaughtered a million Libyans.. is that a cost you'd have payed to avoid war?
    Why go so mild, why not go for WWII?
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    (Original post by Quamquam123)
    Murray's won. How annoying.
    Two petulant British wins today then
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Why go so mild, why not go for WWII?
    I'm pretty sure Aph already got berated for stating that we should not have gone to war with Germany. a few months ago
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Imagine we never went into Libya and Gadaffi slaughtered a million Libyans.. is that a cost you'd have payed to avoid war?
    considering that Libya is now a power vacuum yes. We used to have tyrant kings and dictators all across the west but we naturally grew out of it. The states are new. Yes we should apply soft power such as embargoes but hard power only weakens us and the people we want to help.
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Why go so mild, why not go for WWII?
    Shouldn't have started WWI
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'm pretty sure Aph already got berated for stating that we should not have gone to war with Germany. a few months ago
    And how he's ready to go for it again

    (Original post by Aph)
    considering that Libya is now a power vacuum yes. We used to have tyrant kings and dictators all across the west but we naturally grew out of it. The states are new. Yes we should apply soft power such as embargoes but hard power only weakens us and the people we want to help.

    Shouldn't have started WWI
    So it is yourbelief that the lives of about a million people are worth more than many many millions? Why is it that the lives of Britons are worth so much more than those of Jews, homosexuals, trade unionists, etc?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So you're saying that 19bn (or whatever the exact figure is) minus 9.5bn (or whatever the exact figure is) times 25 is not in excess of 205bn?
    Do you also deny that there are only 6 Scottish MEPs?
    I have no idea RE Scottish MEPs, but 6 sounds plausible.

    So, it's estimated that as a net contributor, the UK contributes 13billion but gets 4.5billion back. Net contibution 8.5billion euros.

    Estimated 10% rise in GDP attributed to EU membership.

    Average seems about 9bn per year since 1973. So arguably £380 billion since 1973. So yes, in simplest terms, more expensive than Trident.

    That however doesn't factor in the GDP rise, job creation etc. Point is a totally separate issue from Trident. Also, incredibly speculatory as is the case for economic debates on the EU.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And how he's ready to go for it again



    So it is yourbelief that the lives of about a million people are worth more than many many millions? Why is it that the lives of Britons are worth so much more than those of Jews, homosexuals, trade unionists, etc?
    Wow, wow, wow. That is a massive strawmen right there. I didn't say that we shouldn't have entered WWII nor did I say that one persons life is worth more than another's.

    In terms of WWI we entered it because Germany marched through Belgium. They didn't attack Belgium at all they just didn't like France so wanted to attack france which we would have been fine with. Which is why we should not have entered WWI.

    WWII was a good war to enter because Germany posed a real and present threat to us and our allies which should have been stopped. Different to them only attacking France.

    War should only be considered as a last resort. If a dictator is killing all of their citizens then yes that is tragic and should be condemned. But if we go in the changes are that we will make things a lot worse before they get better. So by applying soft power we are better equipped to try and change things instead of making things worse.
 
 
 
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