Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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a729
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#841
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#841
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
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Well said!
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Left Hand Drive
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#842
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#842
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
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Why don't we extend it though it to Greece because they can really do with it whats that you only what it for the UK? well thats pretty selfish! As for 180m your down playing the number on purpose?

I've never been to Magaluf, and still fail how to see this is irrelevant. I think you possible see yourself as some sort of huge traveler because you studied at a uni somewhere else in the country. The people in the Republic are no different to us either so should we share oil with them? As for plotting to do us over, no probably not however I'd consider keeping the McCrone secret doing us over.

Do you think when people say we should become more like the Scandanavian countries that we should be a complete carbon copy? So you want to help people but are perfectly happy to spend billions on something we will never use and if we used it would only be used to kill innocents? How many nations have them afterall 15? less?!

It would appear the better together campaign lied again
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...rIWqao.twitter

Lie deflect deny thats your motto eh?
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marcusfox
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#843
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)

Do you think when people say we should become more like the Scandanavian countries that we should be a complete carbon copy? So you want to help people but are perfectly happy to spend billions on something we will never use and if we used it would only be used to kill innocents? How many nations have them afterall 15? less?!
I see you have a problem with the word use. To use a weapon in common language means setting it off in anger, of course. But this is not the only way these weapons can be 'used'

You conveniently ignore the very effective purpose for which we are using them, as they have been used by the US, the French, the Russians, and many more. They are being used to deter other nations from aggression under the doctrine of mutally assured destruction, which has been more effective at preventing warfare than any other.

With such weapons we have the capacity to inflict so much damage on a potential (and more powerful) adversary's population that it will be deterred from attacking in the first place.

Case in point, the only time nuclear weapons have been 'used' in anger. Do you really think that the US would have bombed Japan as they did if Japan had the capacity to carry out a retaliatory nuclear strike against the US population? It's certainly unlikely.

De Gaulle said it better than anyone ever could:

Dans dix ans, nous aurons de quoi tuer 80 millions de Russes. Eh bien je crois qu'on n'attaque pas volontiers des gens qui ont de quoi tuer 80 millions de Russes, même si on a soi-même de quoi tuer 800 millions de Français, à supposer qu'il y eût 800 millions de Français."

(Within ten years, we shall have the means to kill 80 million Russians. I truly believe that one does not light-heartedly attack people who are able to kill 80 million Russians, even if one can kill 800 million French, that is if there were 800 million French.)
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Why don't we extend it though it to Greece because they can really do with it whats that you only what it for the UK? well thats pretty selfish! As for 180m your down playing the number on purpose?

I've never been to Magaluf, and still fail how to see this is irrelevant. I think you possible see yourself as some sort of huge traveler because you studied at a uni somewhere else in the country. The people in the Republic are no different to us either so should we share oil with them? As for plotting to do us over, no probably not however I'd consider keeping the McCrone secret doing us over.

Do you think when people say we should become more like the Scandanavian countries that we should be a complete carbon copy? So you want to help people but are perfectly happy to spend billions on something we will never use and if we used it would only be used to kill innocents? How many nations have them afterall 15? less?!

It would appear the better together campaign lied again
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...rIWqao.twitter

Lie deflect deny thats your motto eh?
You seem to be missing my point. Your 'it's our oil' mentality is narrow minded and selfish. How do you think a separate Scotland would operate if we all turned around and said this is mine. What if shetland start using that line. hows that going to impact us? Your promoting a backward type of commerce. Almost along the lines of the barter system. I'm not sharing it as its. Lets hope the english dont start using that one. its our stock exchange only we cam use it. goodbye edinburgh financial services. It's our renewables subsidy. Good by wind farms.

Do you think we'd have a functioning state with such a greed driven society reliant on oil and whiskey? You're also forgetting oil's not going to finance everything and by pretending it is we'll damage everything els in our economy.

I'm recommending YOU get out and travel to open your rather closed mind. Most people don't need to, but you do. but you'll probably end up sitting in your bedroom with a saltire on the bedroom wall. I've met your type time and time again. You never mix, you keep your mind closed and you wrap yourself in a flag and pretend you know everything.

the SNP have mastered the art of portraying us as victims. The secret mccrone report being the prime example. Well if you've got a spare 4 minutes you can hear the story straight from the horses mouth.







for those who can't be bothered here's a brief summary.

1) all cabinet level briefings are confidential and get declassified years later be it scottish oil, Lancashire turnip production or cardiffs graffiti problem. Remember alex salmond a refusal to publish his European legal advice.
2) there was nothing secret in it as it was all readily available. In fact most of it was a cut and paste from the observer newspaper.

I use my car insurance and household insurance everyday but I don't have to claim on it everyday to use it. I use it as its a deterrent to make sure I'm not out of pocket if things go wrong. Tridents like that. It's used everyday. When we fire it, We've stopped using it. It's an insurance policy. Nothing more. Nothing less. I'd love tto live in a world where we didnt need it, but sadly we don't. If you read some proper newspapers and websites you'll realise that. But you're insular viewpoint of life restricts you to newsnetscotland and argyle today. Check out what Iran and north koreas doing now. I would say look at recent history during the Cold War but I doubt you'd be able to comprehend that and take an ostrich approach to life.

It's good you've quoted the Scotsman newspaper though as it shows there's hope for you yet. Slight problem on the news article you quoted though. The author of the news article is a guy called George Kerevan. George works for the SNP. I suspect that with his background in journalism he's working in their PR team. That's why it's in the opinion section. Even you can get published there if you write a good enough article.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kerevan
http://www.yournextmp.com/candidates/george_kerevan

although the SNP have been trying to put government controls on scottish media, its still independent and free. As such they allow people to publish counter claims. It's something the SNP don't like as its normally there that their rather fanciful claims get un ravelled.

and you still haven't answered how Scotland gets a raw deal? Can you answer that one for me? To help me out though can you mention child poverty in Scotland ccompared to the rest of the UK. I know Nicola sturgeons been banging on about that fir some time now
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by marcusfox)
I see you have a problem with the word use. To use a weapon in common language means setting it off in anger, of course. But this is not the only way these weapons can be 'used'

You conveniently ignore the very effective purpose for which we are using them, as they have been used by the US, the French, the Russians, and many more. They are being used to deter other nations from aggression under the doctrine of mutally assured destruction, which has been more effective at preventing warfare than any other.

With such weapons we have the capacity to inflict so much damage on a potential (and more powerful) adversary's population that it will be deterred from attacking in the first place.

Case in point, the only time nuclear weapons have been 'used' in anger. Do you really think that the US would have bombed Japan as they did if Japan had the capacity to carry out a retaliatory nuclear strike against the US population? It's certainly unlikely.

De Gaulle said it better than anyone ever could:
this may help you out.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4_11...eature=related


incidentally. If you get the chance try and read a book called 'The Cold War , a militar history ' by david miller. A real eye opener
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marcusfox
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#846
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#846
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
this may help you out.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4_11...eature=related
The correct format for YouTube on TSR is {YOUTUBE]uB4_11HR-Mk[/YOUTUBE] with a [ instead of {

So basically

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MatureStudent36
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#847
(Original post by marcusfox)
The correct format for YouTube on TSR is {YOUTUBE]uB4_11HR-Mk[/YOUTUBE] with a [ instead of {

So basically


Yeah. I'm lost on that one. I'll need to figure it out on my laptop in the morning. Can you do my mccrone report for me from my earlier post please and I'll edit it
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marcusfox
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#848
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Yeah. I'm lost on that one. I'll need to figure it out on my laptop in the morning. Can you do my mccrone report for me from my earlier post please and I'll edit it
Basically C&P the bit after the = and wrap it round {YOUTUBE] tags...

{YOUTUBE]x2F-H01Qm1I[/YOUTUBE]

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Good bloke
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Perhaps an advocate of Scottish independence can tell us what their reaction would be if the Shetlands should indicate an aversion to independence in an otherwise pro-independence referendum? Should the islands be allowed to stay in the UK (with all the inconvenience that would cause to Scottish budgets) or would they not afford them the right of self-determination and force them to be part of the newly-independent Scotland?
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MatureStudent36
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#850
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#850
(Original post by Good bloke)
Perhaps an advocate of Scottish independence can tell us what their reaction would be if the Shetlands should indicate an aversion to independence in an otherwise pro-independence referendum? Should the islands be allowed to stay in the UK (with all the inconvenience that would cause to Scottish budgets) or would they not afford them the right of self-determination and force them to be part of the newly-independent Scotland?
They're apparently not allowed to and if they do they can only claim oil out to 12 miles. Remember, everything north if Carlisle is scottish. We're apparently all identical with no regional variances, no different cultural nuances and all have indent oval incomes and spending needs.they don't like thinking other than pretending oil and whiskey will save us all.I'd just like to remind everybody though that they're still a minority. They're great at portraying themselves as the voice of the scottish people. They don't.
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1134952
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#851
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In my opinion I feel that Scottish Independence is a "good" thing ; As you have to ask your self the question do we as a country want to make our own descisions? Or have our own descisions made for us? We are also historically morally and economically different. I feel that we will do okay on our own. I feel it is about time that we were our own.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Megan1234567)
In my opinion I feel that Scottish Independence is a "good" thing ; As you have to ask your self the question do we as a country want to make our own descisions? Or have our own descisions made for us? We are also historically morally and economically different. I feel that we will do okay on our own. I feel it is about time that we were our own.
Yet we make our own decisions already? Or as far as we can in a democracy. I after all didn't vote for the SNP. So I'm currently stuck with a government in Edinburgh that doesn't represent my views. Shall we chop Scotland down into even smaller area's delineated along party voting lines, because there's huge area's of Scotland that didn't vote for the SNP, or are likley to in the future. Shal we go for some kind of partition.


Do the people of Shetland have a right to take their oil away from a seperate Scotland because Holyrood they have a right to make their own decisions.

How are we Historically different? How far back shall we go? Shall we ignore the last 300 years?

How are we morally different? I keep saying to people get out and travel, because with the exception of an accent and a different printed money I can't see a huge difference between somebody from Glasgow and somebody from Birmingham, or somebody from Glencoe and somebody from Snowdonia. For some unkown reason SNP supporters seem to think that we have a different outlook on life as anybody else South of Gretna. We don't. There are regional nuances, but we have those in Scotland. Is a Highlander identical to a Lowlander or somebody from the Islands?

How are we economically different? We use the same money as the rest of the UK, we receive the same benefits, Welfare and State Pensions as the rest of the UK. We're all under written by the Bank of England as the lender of last resort and we all trade on the FTSE.
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forfrosne
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#853
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Yet we make our own decisions already? Or as far as we can in a democracy.
I think you need to spend a little time learning about the way the UK system works. Scotland does not have the ability to make all their own decisions already. They can make many of them, but the UK is not a federal system like the US, and at the risk of sounding like an A level student who's glad to have the chance to use what he's learned, the fact that we are a unitary system means that Scotland does not have ultimate self-determination. The Westminster govt. can, at any time, take away any and all of the rights and responsibilities devolved to the Scottish parliament in Holyrood.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How are we Historically different? How far back shall we go? Shall we ignore the last 300 years?
Scotland has an extremely distinct history and culture especially if you're willing to look back further than three centuries in the history of a country that extended further back than 2 millennia. Different languages, religions, forms of art, cultural outlook, etc. Vastly different from the Picts, Anglo-Saxons, etc.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How are we economically different? We use the same money as the rest of the UK, we receive the same benefits, Welfare and State Pensions as the rest of the UK. We're all under written by the Bank of England as the lender of last resort and we all trade on the FTSE.
If one includes the North Sea oil and gas figures then Scotland would have a budget surplus. Scotland still has quite a significant manufacturing sector, "Silicon Glen" etc, as well as a quite prosperous recovering financial sector. The point is not that Scotland is "different," you're missing the point: the point is that Scotland's economy would be able to support itself should it choose to leave the UK.
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1134952
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#854
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#854
[QUOTE=forfrosne;41754661]



Scotland has an extremely distinct history and culture especially if you're willing to look back further than three centuries in the history of a country that extended further back than 2 millennia. Different languages, religions, forms of art, cultural outlook, etc. Vastly different from the Picts, Anglo-Saxons, etc.

Totally agreed with you ! That is why i feel that we would benefit going our own ways , making our own decisions. We would benefit better. Scotland nenouned all over the world yet it is only a tiny little dot in the world. So why no be our own country? we have been fighting for years !
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MatureStudent36
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#855
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#855
(Original post by forfrosne)
I think you need to spend a little time learning about the way the UK system works. Scotland does not have the ability to make all their own decisions already.

Do we not? I must of missed something then? I'm sure we live in a democratic country where we have one man one vote. We even have the luxury of a devloved parliament fo rthe every day issues. You are aware that the last three of the UKs Prime Ministers have been Scottish, the same as for Chancellor.

They can make many of them, but the UK is not a federal system like the US, You may have missed that thing called the White house and Congress. In effect we have a very similar set up to the US. US states have tax raising powers, as do we. Holyrood chooses not to use them.

and at the risk of sounding like an A level student who's glad to have the chance to use what he's learned, the fact that we are a unitary system means that Scotland does not have ultimate self-determination. The Westminster govt. can, at any time, take away any and all of the rights and responsibilities devolved to the Scottish parliament in Holyrood. How's that going to work? Are you scared that the big bad boys and girls in Westminster will Squash us. We asked for a referendum and got one. No strings attached.



Scotland has an extremely distinct history and culture especially if you're willing to look back further than three centuries in the history of a country that extended further back than 2 millennia. Different languages, religions, forms of art, cultural outlook, etc. Vastly different from the Picts, Anglo-Saxons, etc.

But isn't that the same for the rest of the UK and Europe? So you're now saying that we're completly different because we're Picts? Somehow I don't see any difference between members of my family because some are Picts and some are Anglo Saxon.



If one includes the North Sea oil and gas figures then Scotland would have a budget surplus. WRONG. We have a budget Surpls now due to a heavy reliance on Public Sector jobs.Scotland still has quite a significant manufacturing sector, "Silicon Glen" etc, as well as a quite prosperous recovering financial sector. The point is not that Scotland is "different," you're missing the point: the point is that Scotland's economy would be able to support itself should it choose to leave the UK.

You're right about the signifiacnt manaufacturing sector and financial services. The manufacturing sector, expecially Silicon Glenn were a UK wide attempt to ensure that the UK has a stretegic capability to produce electronics. Just as teh UK has made the startegic deciosn to continue to build warships and submarines in the UK. Tell me, how are those going to fare if the RUK government turnas around and says 'we need the strategic capability to build micro chips and warships?

You've also forgotten that the reason we have a financial sector in Edinburgh is because of it's access to the Stock exchange in London and the fact that the Bank of England financially backs them. It's all intertwined. Do you not think that loosing access to these things will have a positive or a negative impact on it? I'm assuming, as are most people working in it that it'll be negative.

How are we going to develop these manufacturing jobs? We've cut college education spending? We'll be in competiton with RUK, and we still don't know if we'll be in the EU, WTO or IMF straight away. Salmonds tring to do an Ireland and undercut other nations on the Corporation tax. I don't think he's fully understood that nobody in Europe is going to let him get away with that as everybody was annoyed when Ireland did it as it started a race to the bottom.
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an Siarach
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#856
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"Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?"
For Scotland itself it will be bad (or a struggle, at least) in the short to medium term but probably good in the long run. England, on the other hand, will feel the benefit of losing the largest of the dependent Celtic nations immediately.

Free from the Union (and consequently losing the English as constant scapegoats) Scotland will be free to mature into a true nation and expand beyond its current status as a Labour Party fiefdom with a massively public sector dominated economy.

England, having been freed from its union with Scotland, will take a distinct rightwards shift politically; the Labour Party will lose the many guaranteed seats it has based in Scotland and will have to adapt itself to the (more centre-right) English electorate.
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forfrosne
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You may have missed that thing called the White house and Congress. In effect we have a very similar set up to the US. US states have tax raising powers, as do we. Holyrood chooses not to use them.
Please learn about how the UK system actually works before talking about things you clearly do not understand. The US system is Federal, we are unitary. In the US the federal government does not have the ability to decide on and take away the rights of individual states. In our unitary system the UK government can do that.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How's that going to work? Are you scared that the big bad boys and girls in Westminster will Squash us. We asked for a referendum and got one. No strings attached.

No, but for people who value the right to self-determination it's a big deal.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
But isn't that the same for the rest of the UK and Europe? So you're now saying that we're completly different because we're Picts? Somehow I don't see any difference between members of my family because some are Picts and some are Anglo Saxon.
Come on dude that's not even a good strawman. Yes, it actually is the same for the rest of the UK, although Europe is not relevant. That's why, if they collectively wanted independence as well, I would support them in their choice. Their cultures are distinct if you are willing to analyse at more than just a surface level.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
WRONG. We have a budget Surpls now due to a heavy reliance on Public Sector jobs.
Source, end of first paragraph, sourced from the Sunday Times. Want to try again?

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You're right about the signifiacnt manaufacturing sector and financial services. The manufacturing sector, expecially Silicon Glenn were a UK wide attempt to ensure that the UK has a stretegic capability to produce electronics. Just as teh UK has made the startegic deciosn to continue to build warships and submarines in the UK. Tell me, how are those going to fare if the RUK government turnas around and says 'we need the strategic capability to build micro chips and warships?
You're right, I'm sure that Westminster and the rest of the UK will suffer for it. But it isn't about what's right for the rest of the UK, it's about what's right for Scotland. In a way it might actually be good for the rest of the UK, because we can then move manufacturing jobs back to northern England to places like Sheffield etc.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You've also forgotten that the reason we have a financial sector in Edinburgh is because of it's access to the Stock exchange in London and the fact that the Bank of England financially backs them. It's all intertwined. Do you not think that loosing access to these things will have a positive or a negative impact on it? I'm assuming, as are most people working in it that it'll be negative.
It depends if Scotland do lose access to them. The decision to not be ruled by Westminster does not mean that there cannot be strong links between two banks located close to each other with a long history.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
How are we going to develop these manufacturing jobs? We've cut college education spending? We'll be in competiton with RUK, and we still don't know if we'll be in the EU, WTO or IMF straight away. Salmonds tring to do an Ireland and undercut other nations on the Corporation tax. I don't think he's fully understood that nobody in Europe is going to let him get away with that as everybody was annoyed when Ireland did it as it started a race to the bottom.
Scotland will almost certainly remain in the EU unless the Scottish people wish to leave. They're a strong country with the largest oil and fishing reserves in the European Union, it's in the EU's interests to keep Scotland in the EU. There will be about 18 months in which to negotiate the details about separation, plenty of time.

Also your method of responding is very difficult to respond to..
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1134952
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[QUOTE=L i b;41140951]I hope to God this is a parody. If not then I'm afraid I question not only your intellect, but your sanity. You might as well have thrown in something about William Wallace from that film you saw

FREEEDOMMMM!

Calm down ! Independence is the best way for scotland - As you have to ask your self do you want to make your own decisions or do you want your own decisions made for you? We are a tiny piece in the map that the whole world know about , we are renouned for our culture , we have been fightinng for hundreds of years for independence. We deserve it.
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MatureStudent36
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#859
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[QUOTE=an Siarach;41755255]For Scotland itself it will be bad (or a struggle, at least) in the short to medium term but probably good in the long run. England, on the other hand, will feel the benefit of losing the largest of the dependent Celtic nations immediately.

Would this be the long term after the Oil has run out?

Free from the Union (and consequently losing the English as constant scapegoats) Scotland will be free to mature into a true nation and expand beyond its current status as a Labour Party fiefdom with a massively public sector dominated economy.

I'd like to think we're mature at the moment. Infact we've done quite well so far on the maturity stakes. It's the rather immature navel gazing that worries me now.

England, having been freed from its union with Scotland, will take a distinct rightwards shift politically; the Labour Party will lose the many guaranteed seats it has based in Scotland and will have to adapt itself to the (more centre-right) English electorate.

Would you be talking about the right leaning North of England there?And are you ignoring the fact that fact that people change their political persuasion. Lets remember that not too long ago Scotland was rather Tory.

[/
QUOTE]
..
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Midlander
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#860
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Just been in the pub watching the rugby-every Scot was roaring on Italy as much as they would their own team. Now Man U v Chelsea is on, they're all roaring on United.


Absolutely bloody pathetic.


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