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Petition calling for 2nd Referendum - and write to your MP Watch

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    I voted remain, campaigned for remain even. But the result is the result and I think we should go ahead and leave.

    Saying that however, as much as a referendum is a form of direct democracy and growing more important in UK politics, with at least 7 taking place between 1997 and 2016, another form of direct democracy is as powerful, and is as equally democratic and that is the protest. Protesting has not always been legal, going back hundreds of years, but the British are very good at it, and really it is protest which has formed the cornerstone of our society, being the force driving change in society, be it workers rights, female suffrage, equal pay and more.

    So while it is fair to say we should accept the democratic mandate of the referendum, people equally have a democratic right, a very fundamental and very British right to protest. And protest like a referendum is a pure form of democracy, it is direct democracy, as are petitions which are also being used.

    As such rather than just dismissing these people, calling them crybabies and undemocratic and to get over it, open diologue with them, don't belittle them but have a debate with them, these people are scared, they feel lost and betrayed and like someone has come and closed so many doors they could have gone through as they progressed though life. Progress is not made by standing above others pointing down and laughing but by engaging people on the same level.

    Many of those who voted to remain, such as myself, don't love the EU, many actually see very large flaws in the EU, but felt it was the best option to stay in, so they will understand the sovereignty arguments for example. We should want to welcome debate, not just pointing and blaming on both sides
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    (Original post by jneill)
    There have been issues with the EU/UK relationship since we joined it. But specifically if Cameron and the senior members of the Conservative Party weren't worried about UKIP they wouldn't have included the EUref promise in the Tory manifesto. UKIP = Farage.

    And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.

    Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
    Because the people have already spoken, if you were a supporter of democracy you would support the vote. The impositions of the petition promote inherently undemocratic reforms which ensure the status quo has a de-facto veto since it would incentivise status-quo supporters to simply abstain to deprive the vote of a necessary 75% turnout.

    Hence why 'democrats' aren't posing the 'second vote' the other way which would really be the legitimate way to do it, after all 'most leave supporters' have changed their mind right?

    the people have spoken, be an adult and accept a decision you don't agree with.
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    (Original post by AverageExcellence)
    Because the people have already spoken, if you were a supporter of democracy you would support the vote. The impositions of the petition promote inherently undemocratic reforms which ensure the status quo has a de-facto veto since it would incentivise status-quo supporters to simply abstain to deprive the vote of a necessary 75% turnout.

    Hence why 'democrats' aren't posing the 'second vote' the other way which would really be the legitimate way to do it, after all 'most leave supporters' have changed their mind right?

    the people have spoken, be an adult and accept a decision you don't agree with.
    The petition, as written, is *******s. Yeah.

    I bet very few people that signed it actually read it

    I think most of the 4 million people who signed it did so simply because they think a tight result, with bad information (on both sides), has lead to a poor bit of decision making that has enormous consequences for the nation.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    There have been issues with the EU/UK relationship since we joined it. But specifically if Cameron and the senior members of the Conservative Party weren't worried about UKIP they wouldn't have included the EUref promise in the Tory manifesto. UKIP = Farage.

    And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.

    Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
    If you believe in democracy, why not just call endless referenda until you get the result you want?

    People will never be perfectly informed and there will never be a public debate that everyone is happy with. Any argument for a second referendum can be equally well applied as an argument for endless re-runs.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    If you believe in democracy, why not just call endless referenda until you get the result you want?
    Good idea. It worked in Ireland.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    You don't care about what two previous Prime Ministers think of referendums? Attlee and Thatcher. One Labour, one Tory. One who was at the heart of the creation of the welfare state post WW2, and one who was Britain's longest serving PM in the 20th Century.

    And millenials didn't primarily declare they wanted to remain; most of them didn't bother to vote at all. As I'm not a millennial myself that IS something that annoys me.

    And, to be clear, I don't want a (non-binding) referendum overturned. I want it to be reconsidered. That's quite different. And is exactly what democracy is all about.

    Edit: not many 18-34s in this photo.
    What does it matter what someones opinion on a referendum is? The FACT is a referendum is as democratic as it gets. If you don't like it that you didn't get your own way, time to move to a fascist regime as that's clearly more your style.
    The stats show younger people voted to stay, older voted to leave. Either way, the people protesting are ironically those who probably would also see themselves as advocates of democracy :facepalm:

    You didn't get your own way, but the majority of people did. There's nothing to consider; democracy has spoken, so deal with it or leave.
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    (Original post by Theplace)
    The advisory referendum has to go before parliament fir assent, and must thought to benefit the country.
    You do realise if Parliament throws out the result of a referendum, it will undermine the entire democratic process and cause far greater problems than what is happening at the moment. Also, how can something that the majority of people want not benefit the country? If there's clearly a right answer, then it should never have been put to a referendum.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    What does it matter what someones opinion on a referendum is? The FACT is a referendum is as democratic as it gets. If you don't like it that you didn't get your own way, time to move to a fascist regime as that's clearly more your style.
    The stats show younger people voted to stay, older voted to leave. Either way, the people protesting are ironically those who probably would also see themselves as advocates of democracy :facepalm:

    You didn't get your own way, but the majority of people did. There's nothing to consider; democracy has spoken, so deal with it or leave.
    At issue is not whether a referendum is the most democratic option, it's whether the most democratic option is necessarily a workable way of governing a country.

    The Athenians found this out to their cost almost as soon as they first devised direct democracy.

    There are many stops along the line from direct democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship and the British and other European states have got by quite well with parliamentary democracy for some time now.

    Note, not "a fascist regime"; fascism, being populist, has always been democratic and referenda are banned in Germany today because of how Hitler used them to legitimise himself. In 1933 he held a referendum for withdrawal from the League of Nations (sound familiar?), in 1934 he held one for centralising all executive power in himself, in 1936 he held one to garner support for military occupation of the Rhineland, and in 1938 for the Anschluss with Austria.

    I certainly agree that referenda should be used when we are discussing major changes to a country's constitution, but the way the Leave campaign has been conducted has meant people casting a vote to assuage a range of random policy gripes that are otherwise unrepresented. A more honest way of holding the referendum would have been to put various leave scenarios on the ballot paper as well as the Remain option; then people would have been forced to consider what they were actually voting for and it would have been discussed how various types of leaving might affect our economy, as well as immigration etc. This could still be done if anyone wants to step forward and demand either a referendum or a general election with each party gunning for a different type of exit.
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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    You mean like the millions who voted Blair into government because of the things he said he would do for education and the NHS but then went and took us into an illegal war with Iraq, killing 1000s on the back of lies about WMDs?

    Yeah, did we get a second vote on that one after being duped . . . . . ? Nope!
    Er yes we did, in 2005, where Blair got back in; and then in 2010, where his party was ejected. That's why this has been such a catastrophic decision totally transcending party politics. There is no going back in five years' time now we are out.
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    Now 4.1 Million...

    UKIP hate democracy - trying to force Conservative government to take us out of EU when the Conservative Government has no manifesto pledge to take us out of the EU , either UK wide or in recent scottish election.

    There is no Conservative mandate from Conservative voters to take the UK out of the EU.

    It would be a CRIME against DEMOCRACY for the Conservatives to take us out of the EU without an election so that Conservative votes can agree to this huge change via the ballot box
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    At issue is not whether a referendum is the most democratic option, it's whether the most democratic option is necessarily a workable way of governing a country.

    The Athenians found this out to their cost almost as soon as they first devised direct democracy.

    There are many stops along the line from direct democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship and the British and other European states have got by quite well with parliamentary democracy for some time now.

    Note, not "a fascist regime"; fascism, being populist, has always been democratic and referenda are banned in Germany today because of how Hitler used them to legitimise himself. In 1933 he held a referendum for withdrawal from the League of Nations (sound familiar?), in 1934 he held one for centralising all executive power in himself, in 1936 he held one to garner support for military occupation of the Rhineland, and in 1938 for the Anschluss with Austria.

    I certainly agree that referenda should be used when we are discussing major changes to a country's constitution, but the way the Leave campaign has been conducted has meant people casting a vote to assuage a range of random policy gripes that are otherwise unrepresented. A more honest way of holding the referendum would have been to put various leave scenarios on the ballot paper as well as the Remain option; then people would have been forced to consider what they were actually voting for and it would have been discussed how various types of leaving might affect our economy, as well as immigration etc. This could still be done if anyone wants to step forward and demand either a referendum or a general election with each party gunning for a different type of exit.
    Athens wasn't a true democracy as only the rich could vote, and that was over 2000 years ago making any examples absurd.

    The campaigns for both leave and remain were filled with lies and mistruths - politicians can now earn their wages and figure out the best way for the country to leave. Leaving that part of the vote up to people would be dangerous.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    Athens wasn't a true democracy as only the rich could vote, and that was over 2000 years ago making any examples absurd.

    The campaigns for both leave and remain were filled with lies and mistruths - politicians can now earn their wages and figure out the best way for the country to leave. Leaving that part of the vote up to people would be dangerous.
    So a mandate won on lies and mistruths. Excellent...



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    (Original post by jneill)
    So a mandate won on lies and mistruths. Excellent...



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    Are people able to do research about the pros and cons of leaving the EU themselves? Yes.
    Also your bias is alarming, and frankly laughable, as your comment could simply be spun the other way around if remain had won :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by geoking)
    Are people able to do research about the pros and cons of leaving the EU themselves? Yes.
    Also your bias is alarming, and frankly laughable, as your comment could simply be spun the other way around if remain had won :rolleyes:
    So the campaigns are unnecessary and don't influence people?

    You know that's not how advertising works, right?

    If the campaign teams didn't think their £millions media spend on leaflets, posters, TV spots, press ads, radio, online media, battle buses, etc etc etc wasn't influential THEY WOULDN'T DO IT.
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    There is a good moral case for the second referendum it goes like this...

    a) All sides from UKIP to Labour Left want more young people to vote.
    b) The referendum result has given the young a eye opener to what happens if you do not vote.

    c) All sides want to do what the majority of the UK voted for AND encourage young people to vote.

    d) Thus, since UKIP are so certain the majority of the country back them and they want to encourage the young to vote they should also be demanding a second referendum (for all we know the millions signing this petition are UKIP voters)

    d) A second referendum will bring the country together, the young will feel they have been given a chance to redeem themselves and the old will feel morally superior.

    e) What ever the result everyone will be happy that everything possible has been done to find out the true feelings of the nation. I mean surely we should not pull out of the EU when 70% of the electorate did not say LEAVE.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    So the campaigns are unnecessary and don't influence people?

    You know that's not how advertising works, right?

    If the campaign teams didn't think their £millions media spend on leaflets, posters, TV spots, press ads, radio, online media, battle buses, etc etc etc wasn't influential THEY WOULDN'T DO IT.
    Did I say advertising is pointless? No, I didn't...

    What I said, to clarify and bring you back on track, is that a) people can do their own research, ultimately negating any lies and b) both sides were guilty of lying.

    You are just having a tantrum that you didn't get your own way, yet I imagine you probably would decry any sort of government other than a democracy? :holmes:
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    (Original post by geoking)
    I imagine you probably would decry any sort of government other than a democracy? :holmes:
    What does that even mean?

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    (Original post by jneill)
    What does that even mean?

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    Oh dear.

    It means that if someone was to propose that the UK was to become an oligarchy or autocracy, you would probably argue that a democracy is the best form of government.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    Oh dear.

    It means that if someone was to propose that the UK was to become an oligarchy or autocracy, you would probably argue that a democracy is the best form of government.
    Certainly the best form of Government is a democracy which includes: petitions, referendums, elections, demonstrations, bye-laws (that is laws made by local governments), common laws, free press, regional governments, pooled governments (such as Australia's constitution and the EU)....

    I don't see what this has to do with the UK democratic petition system.
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    I wanted us to vote Remain, but I sadly am too young to have a vote!

    That being said, I don't think it is right for us to have another referendum, simply because it goes against all the laws of democracy to overrule the decision made by the people.

    The other issue is the question of what we would do if people voted Leave again. As much as many campaigners for a second referendum believe it is because people who originally voted Leave have now changed their minds, for how long would we be requesting referendums until we got our own way?

    Democracy works because it is freedom of choice for everyone. Everyone aged 18 and over who is registered to vote in the UK is able to have their voice listened to. If people able to vote choose not to use their vote, there is little point in complaining now that the decision has been made because you had the opportunity to make a change and chose not to do it. If people able to vote choose Remain, then that is their decision and that is final.

    In any case, we have dragged out this referendum for far too long and it is time to accept the decision that has been made, however unhappy it makes you and move on. Instead of focusing on another referendum, we need to now take the necessary measures to cope with leaving the EU, attend to the matters that have been neglected in the run up to the referendum and figure out a plan for the future of our country.
 
 
 
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