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The Arsenal Thread XXII watch

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    (Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest)
    Lol Cazorla along with Walcott were the only reasons why we got through that season, the latter being one of the best CAMs in the premier league at that point. Again all speculation, being obtuse for no reason by suggesting he wont be looking to improve the current squad.

    No ones forgotten how good he was or his talent but with the current system we are playing, Welbeck still offers more on the wing as a complete player than Walcott has shown to be capable. Sure Walcott could improve to fit better with our team and don't explicitly want him to be sold with any urgency or anything (great option to have off the bench in certain games) but if he wants to leave because we aren't putting him in our first 11 all the time then i'm indifferent and he'd be stupid to be asking for a significant bump in his wages too. Not all about goals btw, which is why people seem to shun Welbeck in favour of Walcott constantly even though the former is much more involved in games, but if Walcott was to add more to his game (defensively and link up mainly) which is entirely possible (becoming less likely though) then he could quite easily reclaim Welbecks spot. Welbeck is certainly not a flop just because he's a donkey infront of goal though. People seem to be calling for Walcotts inclusion in games i.e Chelsea where he was ineffective, I know he was only on for a few minutes but if he wants a starting spot he deffo needs to become more involved in team play.

    Still not rating Bellerin ey? wonder if the boy will have to pocket Messi on top of having succesfully dealt with the likes of Cout, Sterling, Hazard, Silva before getting an honourable mention in our squad next year. Him and Jenko are our best RBs in all honesty, the only thing Debuchy has on both is experience but ability wise they have/will be above him by the end of next season anyway.
    I rate Bellerin, but he only works when there's a defensive minded winger in front of him. Him and Walcott on right flank would be ideal if you're a 12 year old on Fifa, but I. Real life you're ****ed defensively
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    The best time to look at potential problems is when you're doing well, fix the roof when it isn't leaking
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    (Original post by IceyFish)
    Lol he clearly is a flop. Guy was brought in as a striker otherwise he could've played as our ***** on the wing but Wenger realised he's **** up front so he does dog work for you lot now. Good squad player though. In all honesty we should've kept him as he's quite a good winger in some regards.
    The dog work he does is pretty valuable to our team regardless. Stopping counters and tactical nous (i.e knowing when to narrow play/hug the touch line or stay deep etc. etc.) are his biggest strengths over Walcott and while he can stretch play and get behind defences like Walcott he hasn't got that clinical edge to him, but its not much of a problem (still frustrating) because we have goalscorers all over the pitch. Agree that Welbeck is **** up front as a lone striker, he doesn't possess any of the required qualities to a high enough level to do it but as a Winger he's a good enough player. Would buy him again if offered in the same circumstances which is why I don't see him as a flop.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    and retain a major trophy?
    Which side was it that won it the year before you? Who played you in the final last year, who are you playing this year? Its a nice trophy to win, particularly in combination with a league title, but its hardly the CL. Getting to the final is quite clearly on the basis of previous finalists of poor indicator of quality, and beating a team escaping relegation doesn't add much more to that.

    The fact remains, as in previous years you where a considerable margin off the title (a slightly better also ran), and in Europe you messed up the group stage (again) and exited at the R16 (again). Progress made by Arsenal this season in terms of performance is marginal at best, mere fluctuation quite possibly.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Progress made by Arsenal this season in terms of performance is marginal at best, mere fluctuation quite possibly.
    They've shown more maturity in the big PL games, forget the CL for now. I think that alone, Wenger finally yielding and being more pragmatic, constitutes a lot of progress.
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    (Original post by leinad2012)
    I rate Bellerin, but he only works when there's a defensive minded winger in front of him. Him and Walcott on right flank would be ideal if you're a 12 year old on Fifa, but I. Real life you're ****ed defensively
    Yet people still were calling for Walcott to start when we had Debuchy out because he can "get behind defences" as if teams make it that easy these days. Bellerin isn't even bad defensively, yet to see anyone prove the myth that he gets ripped by any pacy forward because he's too high up the pitch. Generally agree though which is why Ramsey/Bellerin work well on the wing, think they have good synergy whereas Debuchy/Ramsey just didn't click against Reading for example.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Which side was it that won it the year before you? Who played you in the final last year, who are you playing this year? Its a nice trophy to win, particularly in combination with a league title, but its hardly the CL. Getting to the final is quite clearly on the basis of previous finalists of poor indicator of quality, and beating a team escaping relegation doesn't add much more to that.

    The fact remains, as in previous years you where a considerable margin off the title (a slightly better also ran), and in Europe you messed up the group stage (again) and exited at the R16 (again). Progress made by Arsenal this season in terms of performance is marginal at best, mere fluctuation quite possibly.
    not arguing that it is on the same level as the CL or league - its certainly below both.

    But I would put it in the catagory of major trophies.. all top teams in leagues have 3 major trophies to win:

    Europaen cup
    National league
    national cup

    --

    As for progress:

    as it stands, we will finish 7pts off the lead. Looking back it looks like:

    7pts, 7pts, 16pts, 19pts, 12pts, 11pts, 18pts, 4pts

    So you have to go back 8 seasons, until you find us closer to the title then we have been this and last season.

    Our points totals also reflect this:

    (potential) 79-82, 79, 73, 70, 75, 72, 83


    I think its pretty clear to see that we have bassically had a massive dip in between cycles, as wenger re-builds a new squad.

    He built a squad, post-invicibles, that peaked around 2008-10.. which started to do alright, a cup final, a decent points total..

    But then our best players were sold off, and that squad fell appart.

    Since then we have been re-building, and working to a new core of players, and the results have gradually improved back to where they were at our best.

    -- The key difference that should make arsenal fans confident though, is that unlike that squad in 2008, our current squad already has won a trophy, and may win a 2nd this year.. that winning mentality is crucial, and this squad does seem to have it more, and less of a tendancy to bottle it, then the last squad wenger built.
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    (Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest)
    The dog work he does is pretty valuable to our team regardless. Stopping counters and tactical nous (i.e knowing when to narrow play/hug the touch line or stay deep etc. etc.) are his biggest strengths over Walcott and while he can stretch play and get behind defences like Walcott he hasn't got that clinical edge to him, but its not much of a problem (still frustrating) because we have goalscorers all over the pitch. Agree that Welbeck is **** up front as a lone striker, he doesn't possess any of the required qualities to a high enough level to do it but as a Winger he's a good enough player. Would buy him again if offered in the same circumstances which is why I don't see him as a flop.
    Yeah I guess so, he makes sense if you're thinking about Arsenal's lack of work rate up top but he's not the most technical player. I guess it could be argued to show a measure of pragmatism from Wenger, in the sense that he's finally willing to drop the jizzfest over technically skilled offensively minded playmakers on the wing and fit some hardworking industrious players into the side. You could probably upgrade but it's not too much of a problem for now, a CF is definitely needed though as Giroud is either not good enough (which I believe personally), or exposed with no back-up.
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    2010-11. Arsenal squad with more bottle than a Coke bottle, yet bottled it. (At the end when Fabregas basically went AWOL, you can see why they don't forgive him especially for moving across the Piccadilly line)
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    (Original post by IceyFish)
    Yeah I guess so, he makes sense if you're thinking about Arsenal's lack of work rate up top but he's not the most technical player. I guess it could be argued to show a measure of pragmatism from Wenger, in the sense that he's finally willing to drop the jizzfest over technically skilled offensively minded playmakers on the wing and fit some hardworking industrious players into the side. You could probably upgrade but it's not too much of a problem for now, a CF is definitely needed though as Giroud is either not good enough (which I believe personally), or exposed with no back-up.
    Hard to argue that Giroud isn't good enough based off his current season/form, unless you mean not good enough on his own for a title challenge as oppose to not good enough for Arsenal. If so then I agree, he needs rotation to prevent burnout/getting lazy from lack of competition but I think he could still be our main striker if we continue getting goals from players like Sanchez/Ramsey/Ozil etc. in fact quite a few of our players rely on Giroud being up top to play well tbh. Which can be argued to not be very healthy in the long run but it shows how influential he is when playing well.
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    (Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
    They've shown more maturity in the big PL games, forget the CL for now. I think that alone, Wenger finally yielding and being more pragmatic, constitutes a lot of progress.
    Possibly but looking at the mini league, I wouldn't say its a lot of progress. Perhaps attitude but how much has it translated to. Their best result of the season is a win against City, and a win which considering City's performance against top sides or just generally since is considerably less impressive. Chelsea would have been a good indicator but they clearly came for a draw. They still have us to play I guess, but how much can be learned from that. I don't think you can say forget the CL for now either. Why would you forget it? Its arguable a great test of a managers pragmatism and the maturity of a team, particularly in the approach to the knockout rounds.

    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    as it stands, we will finish 7pts off the lead. Looking back it looks like:

    7pts, 7pts, 16pts, 19pts, 12pts, 11pts, 18pts, 4pts

    So you have to go back 8 seasons, until you find us closer to the title then we have been this and last season.

    Our points totals also reflect this:

    (potential) 79-82, 79, 73, 70, 75, 72, 83
    You can also counter with you have to go back 3 seasons to find a time you were further off the title. How have you arrived at 7 points too? 13 at present with a game in hand, but I would say United at OT than Liverpool at the bridge. Even then 10 seems more likely, but for consideration 15 is possible. Does that change the argument? I don't think so.

    In terms of points I think its just fluctuation for the most part. 82 points got Chelsea 3rd last season, they'll win the title with 83 this year. Year to year points totals do change, and you can draw multiple conclusions depending on how you choose to look at it.

    I'm talking about whether this season has seen notable progression. SUG makes the argument you have in terms of mentality, you haven't been smashed by a top side, I think transfers is certainly improved but in performance terms, although you can argue you are better equipped than ever there is nothing to suggest from this season there has been notable improvement in over the near term towards the ultimate aims.

    I'm not anti Arsenal, beginning of last season I said I thought the team was not far off being ready to mount a title challenge. The team is certainly moving forward over the longer team, and is moving nicely towards the requirements for sustained success. I just think the measured being used to assess progress from last season are weak. On this thread someone wrote they were happy we lost to Everton as it means you will finish above us in 2nd, indicating progress. So the difference between progress in 2nd and 3rd is whether United lose to Everton before possibly doing the league double on you? Thats weak.

    As said the FA cup is nice, but your run to the final consists of which teams? Hull, Brighton, Middlesborough, United and Reading, with Villa in the final. There are 3 lower league sides and and 2 relegation contenders. United perhaps but a game over one leg, in a season where you could conceivably lost twice in the league. Not to mention are United really the acid test we were previously? I don't think its means much in assessing a season in the cold light of day.
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    (Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest)
    Hard to argue that Giroud isn't good enough based off his current season/form, unless you mean not good enough on his own for a title challenge as oppose to not good enough for Arsenal. If so then I agree, he needs rotation to prevent burnout/getting lazy from lack of competition but I think he could still be our main striker if we continue getting goals from players like Sanchez/Ramsey/Ozil etc. in fact quite a few of our players rely on Giroud being up top to play well tbh. Which can be argued to not be very healthy in the long run but it shows how influential he is when playing well.
    Yeah I meant wrt a title challenge rather than Arsenal (though really both things should be interlinked). His build up play is good though, brings a lot of people into play and allows Ramsey to run in behind defences. Not good enough in big games either really, every other top team has a striker capable of creating something from nothing which he doesn't.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Possibly but looking at the mini league, I wouldn't say its a lot of progress. Perhaps attitude but how much has it translated to. Their best result of the season is a win against City, and a win which considering City's performance against top sides or just generally since is considerably less impressive. Chelsea would have been a good indicator but they clearly came for a draw. They still have us to play I guess, but how much can be learned from that. I don't think you can say forget the CL for now either. Why would you forget it? Its arguable a great test of a managers pragmatism and the maturity of a team, particularly in the approach to the knockout rounds.
    Put it this way, if I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be over the moon with the knowledge that Wenger didn't suicidally push his fullbacks to the byline against Chelsea, and that they won an away game at City. Given that their season has all the classic hallmarks of an Arsenal season, that improvement is stark and makes me feel uneasy, as an opposition supporter. The fact that Wenger has finally yielded and dropped his stubbornness, along with the arrival of the talismanic Alexis, means that there's a whole new world of decent performances in big games for them to explore.

    Improvement in the CL and on the domestic front is just a little too much to ask for tbh.
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    I'd say we're back at 08 levels. Still need significant improvements mentally, physically, tactically (transfers and coaching improvements) to get back to anywhere near the 1997-2006 levels.
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    (Original post by ClockEnderAFC)
    You sound like Ty lol trying to find the positives all the time
    You mean I'm not a miserable ******* who refuses to acknowledge his side is in the FA Cup final for the second year in a row, and is joint second in the BPL table (with a game in hand)? I just like to support my club, and whilst that does mean criticizing some aspects some of the time, it also means praising them when they are doing well, and being happy for their success.
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    What will you guys think if we don't win the FA Cup?
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    (Original post by al_94)
    What will you guys think if we don't win the FA Cup?
    the season has been a failure.

    Simple really.
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    Success = Winning FA cup

    Arsenal Logickz
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Which side was it that won it the year before you? Who played you in the final last year, who are you playing this year? Its a nice trophy to win, particularly in combination with a league title, but its hardly the CL. Getting to the final is quite clearly on the basis of previous finalists of poor indicator of quality, and beating a team escaping relegation doesn't add much more to that.

    The fact remains, as in previous years you where a considerable margin off the title (a slightly better also ran), and in Europe you messed up the group stage (again) and exited at the R16 (again). Progress made by Arsenal this season in terms of performance is marginal at best, mere fluctuation quite possibly.
    Unfair rationalization of the quality of a cup competition by looking at previous finalists. Dortmund were in the CL final only 2 years ago and for the majority of this season looked on the brink of relegation and will probably finish mid-table this season, and they almost won it.

    Cup competitions are all about luck and getting easy opponents in your road to the final. Hull last year had a very easy route to the final including Sunderland, Sheffield, Brighton Middlesbrough, so no surprise to see them there. In contrast we had Liverpool, Everton, Spurs (3 of the top 6 in the country and would have been 4 had Man City not been knocked out by Wigan). Villa's route to the final doesn't look too frightening either.

    Also, I wouldn't belittle a competition which your team badly wanted to win this year, especially your manager. It's easy to call a competition ****e when your team is not in it.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)

    As said the FA cup is nice, but your run to the final consists of which teams? Hull, Brighton, Middlesborough, United and Reading, with Villa in the final. There are 3 lower league sides and and 2 relegation contenders. United perhaps but a game over one leg, in a season where you could conceivably lost twice in the league. Not to mention are United really the acid test we were previously? I don't think its means much in assessing a season in the cold light of day.
    It's astounding how your arguments are looking at incredibly minute detail to belittle a teams performance over an entire season. Chelsea finished sixth in the league the same year they beat Barca and Bayern in the CL and ultimately won it. Does their final league position belittle that achievement? No.

    Using your argument there are an enormous amount of possibilties we can assess where a champions achievements can only be praised to a certain extent because a team didn't provide an 'acid' test. Do you think the players go home and think oh yeah well they're not as good as they used to be so it doesn't really say much about the win? Of course not. They take the win on board and use that new found mentality/ability to win and use it to improve further.
 
 
 
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