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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    I think the argument against releasing the notes here tends to be: the students won't engage with the sessions properly if they know that they'll just be given what they need to know at the end. But I think that says a lot more about the sessions than the students. This year there will be people going into the exam not just not knowing material, but never realising it was expected of them simply because of shoddy CBL sessions where tutors don't ensure that their students are aware of what should've been covered.



    That's so true. Happened so often last year. "Oh, it's obviously diabetes..." cue people feeling bored and as though their time is wasted for the next hour.


    With the technology at our disposal in 2012, I'd say there should be other media brought in.


    I partly think the problem is time. In PBL everything is so much slower. It takes more time to cover material. A PBL course needs to have another couple of years tagged on!
    Well that's what happens when students teach students, facililtator or not. If you pack them into a lecture theatre, sure, some will fall asleep, but theres no variation between PBL groups - as long as you use good lecturers, everyone gets the same.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Well that's what happens when students teach students, facililtator or not. If you pack them into a lecture theatre, sure, some will fall asleep, but theres no variation between PBL groups - as long as you use good lecturers, everyone gets the same.
    It's not the students teaching students that slows things down (that doesn't even happen really, or shouldn't). It's the searching for information, selecting the right books, synthesising the information yourself, etc. If you're given the information -- whether in a powerpoint lecture slide, tutor notes, seminar handout, whatever -- it essentially removes the arduous, time consuming element that is rife in PBL and allows much more information to be covered in a smaller space of time.

    And as for using good lecturers, that's just as variable as using good PBL facilitators, it just means that the entire year suffers rather than a section of said year.
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    It's not the students teaching students that slows things down (that doesn't even happen really, or shouldn't). It's the searching for information, selecting the right books, synthesising the information yourself, etc. If you're given the information -- whether in a powerpoint lecture slide, tutor notes, seminar handout, whatever -- it essentially removes the arduous, time consuming element that is rife in PBL and allows much more information to be covered in a smaller space of time.

    And as for using good lecturers, that's just as variable as using good PBL facilitators, it just means that the entire year suffers rather than a section of said year.
    Yeah, this.
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    PBL.

    I loathed how it was done.
    That is why I almost failed the module of PBL

    It works when you have a great facilitator (we had in yr 2 and it made PBL bearable for me) but other than that bloody useless I find. Tutorials are better.
    Who?
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    It's not the students teaching students that slows things down (that doesn't even happen really, or shouldn't). It's the searching for information, selecting the right books, synthesising the information yourself, etc. If you're given the information -- whether in a powerpoint lecture slide, tutor notes, seminar handout, whatever -- it essentially removes the arduous, time consuming element that is rife in PBL and allows much more information to be covered in a smaller space of time.

    And as for using good lecturers, that's just as variable as using good PBL facilitators, it just means that the entire year suffers rather than a section of said year.
    Do you not think it is better to have a good lecturer cover a decent chunk of material than to have every srudent wasting time? If I go through our lectures properly, it makes about an hour per lecture preclin - I dread to think how much time would be spent if I also had to research the lecture

    and so the ideal system is where you have lectures go through the material and then tutorials to iron out any problems and as a way for further discussion.

    Oh wait, that system is in place - shame most universities don't have the resources to cover it...
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    Anyone have access to psych/neuropharm journals and willing to do me favours in return for love *or karma?
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Do you not think it is better to have a good lecturer cover a decent chunk of material than to have every srudent wasting time? If I go through our lectures properly, it makes about an hour per lecture preclin - I dread to think how much time would be spent if I also had to research the lecture
    An enthusiastic lecturer who composes their lectures well and communicates concepts effectively is a great asset. I just don't think most are like that. I've never been to another university -- hopefully get a different perspective next year -- so I can't say if others are like this. I suspect they aren't on the whole.

    and so the ideal system is where you have lectures go through the material and then tutorials to iron out any problems and as a way for further discussion.
    Providing the lectures are good.

    Oh wait, that system is in place - shame most universities don't have the resources to cover it...
    Read: most medical schools don't have space in their timetables to cover it. My girlfriend studies history and politics and virtually all their course is delivered exactly like that.
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    An enthusiastic lecturer who composes their lectures well and communicates concepts effectively is a great asset. I just don't think most are like that. I've never been to another university -- hopefully get a different perspective next year -- so I can't say if others are like this. I suspect they aren't on the whole.


    Providing the lectures are good.


    Read: most medical schools don't have space in their timetables to cover it. My girlfriend studies history and politics and virtually all their course is delivered exactly like that.
    I think the root of this problem is the cross subsidisation of university research - lecturers are research scientists who have to come in and teach occasionally about their research topic. As a result, they pitch their lectures, generally, as if it was already to an interested audiance - which usually means too much detail. This would be ok, medics can deal with detail - IF the material started at a baby level and illustrated the thinking process. alot of the stuff is dull to remember, it gets even worse if you can't see the point.

    This is the fundamental tension created when you cram a large amount of material into a short space of time. There is not time to explain the thinking - which would improve learning, nor are medics generally taught how to think scientifically - ie how and why experiments are designed etc. Which is a disaster considering this is where ALL medical knowledge derives from.

    At the end of the day, preclinical medicine is not about teaching people to think, it is about shoving down a large volume of information which might be used later. But because people are not challenged to think through what they learn, learning suffers. If you have people that know how to study, and already have a good grounding, but want to learn more - they can do that, which is why I think PBL would be good at postgraduate level where you are motivated to advance your career; but I think at undergrad, I just get the impression that it becomes a DIY situation where you are left to the mercy of your group teaching each other.

    Once you get to clinical, you learn more by yourself because you can use the patients you see as a start, there is not such start in the pre-clinical years. maybe it's becasue my experience of PBL is far from glowing in its short life, but I just don't see the point or the benefits.
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    DIT :bawling:
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    (Original post by Isometrix)
    Well their government forces every citizen to put aside a certain % of their monthly income into healthcare savings. This can be pooled together within families too. They use this to co-pay part of their medical expenses, which cost more for a higher level of service. Also to keep basic healthcare affordable they subsidise everyone through means testing, those who earn less get a higher subsidy. I guess it reduces overutilisation and prevents the healthcare system from being exploited?
    Ah so it's a similar strategy to taxation, that does make a lot of sense and seems much fairer than an all out privatisation like the USA. I didn't realise it was means tested before, every system has it's ups and downs but if the NHS is starting to 'reform' then I would rather it follow onto something like this.

    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    As I mentioned above, the liability lies either with the company that made the implants (which now doesn't exist) or the body that approved them as reaching medical standards (which doesn't have the money to pay out).
    Just giving my opinion on the matter.
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    (Original post by xXxBaby-BooxXx)
    From what I understand, posters you have to be first name authors, audits and research you just have to be an author. Is this right?
    From the foundation programme site http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.u...faqs#answer169

    'Do audits count if your name is on them?
    If your audit has been published and has a PMID, you can count it.'


    Damn. Seems like you cannot get a point for anything unless it has a Pubmed ID.

    But I am liking this next question...

    'I presented the same poster but at two different conferences. Does this count for one or two points?
    As long as you are first named author, and both conferences meet the requirements as a national or international conference, then you would be awarded two points.'
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    I think the root of this problem is the cross subsidisation of university research - lecturers are research scientists who have to come in and teach occasionally about their research topic. As a result, they pitch their lectures, generally, as if it was already to an interested audiance - which usually means too much detail. This would be ok, medics can deal with detail - IF the material started at a baby level and illustrated the thinking process. alot of the stuff is dull to remember, it gets even worse if you can't see the point.

    This is the fundamental tension created when you cram a large amount of material into a short space of time. There is not time to explain the thinking - which would improve learning, nor are medics generally taught how to think scientifically - ie how and why experiments are designed etc. Which is a disaster considering this is where ALL medical knowledge derives from.

    At the end of the day, preclinical medicine is not about teaching people to think, it is about shoving down a large volume of information which might be used later. But because people are not challenged to think through what they learn, learning suffers. If you have people that know how to study, and already have a good grounding, but want to learn more - they can do that, which is why I think PBL would be good at postgraduate level where you are motivated to advance your career; but I think at undergrad, I just get the impression that it becomes a DIY situation where you are left to the mercy of your group teaching each other.

    Once you get to clinical, you learn more by yourself because you can use the patients you see as a start, there is not such start in the pre-clinical years. maybe it's becasue my experience of PBL is far from glowing in its short life, but I just don't see the point or the benefits.
    at the bit in bold - i think our tutors and course organisers would strongly disagree with that. it really depends how teaching is arranged but i imagine everywhere there is the hope when each course is written that as many students as possible do actually think rather than just learn but unless you specifically force them too (in some cases - for example via tutorials) then often students (particularly those medicine attracts) will relish rote learning as its a known evil.

    also re: experiment; in all our weekly (+exam) essays it is necessary to look up and incorporate experimental results (often a combination of classic experiments and more recent review type work) that demonstrate the science that you are describing or mechanisms by which clinical problems may arise which goes some way (of course incompletely) to trying to instill some appreciation of the experimental basis of medicine. That said im not sure you really could do much better than that with such epic time restriction on teaching pre-clinical courses which is where medical courses fall over themselves a bit.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    DIT :bawling:

    I dont understand it ?
    I think reality hit me with a baseball bat! I dont know anything, my favourite phrase is i dont know - even if i do know, surgeons talk a different language and ive taken to smiling or laughing because im so bloody embarrassed!! I must look like such a muppet! Now you would have thought that would have motivated me to work when actually all it has done is made me eat cake.
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    Although off topic, seeing Chase and Status are at download festival this year has made me sad :sad:
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    I think the root of this problem is the cross subsidisation of university research - lecturers are research scientists who have to come in and teach occasionally about their research topic. As a result, they pitch their lectures, generally, as if it was already to an interested audiance - which usually means too much detail. This would be ok, medics can deal with detail - IF the material started at a baby level and illustrated the thinking process. alot of the stuff is dull to remember, it gets even worse if you can't see the point.
    Exactly. Many people in this position simply don't know the level to pitch to medical students.

    This is the fundamental tension created when you cram a large amount of material into a short space of time. There is not time to explain the thinking - which would improve learning, nor are medics generally taught how to think scientifically - ie how and why experiments are designed etc. Which is a disaster considering this is where ALL medical knowledge derives from.
    I think that entirely depends where you go. And you'll get some grounding in that if you intercalate, also.

    At the end of the day, preclinical medicine is not about teaching people to think, it is about shoving down a large volume of information which might be used later. But because people are not challenged to think through what they learn, learning suffers. If you have people that know how to study, and already have a good grounding, but want to learn more - they can do that, which is why I think PBL would be good at postgraduate level where you are motivated to advance your career; but I think at undergrad, I just get the impression that it becomes a DIY situation where you are left to the mercy of your group teaching each other.
    PBL makes an attempt at moulding students into thinking. It doesn't always do it well but with a good facilitator, a nicely constructed case and a decent group of students, it really can.

    I really wish you'd stop the whole "students teaching students" malarkey. That's not what PBL is and demonstrates a fundamental misconception. In PBL the idea isn't to be strictly taught everything by your fellows. It does give you the opportunity to ask questions and get things clarified, but nobody in PBL should be teaching you an entire topic. You're supposed to be comfortable with the topic at hand before you walk through the doors to the PBL room (let's face it, there isn't much in medicine that's so conceptually challenging that this is infeasible).
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    (Original post by a moist feeling)
    Although off topic, seeing Chase and Status are at download festival this year has made me sad :sad:
    Don't worry, you can drink that sadness away tonight
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    OSCEs done. Think I ****ed up my abdo exam because the examiner kept asking me questions and interrupting my stride. Jumbled up the sequence making it a little messy and completely forgot to mention I would attempt to elicit shifting dullness/fluid thrills if there was ascites. Oops. All of the other stations went alright though.
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    Spent hours learning the coagulation cascade to be told by a consultant haematologist that the intrinsic pathway does not really begin coagulation and coagulation still occurs fie without prekallikrein and factor 12.

    Its more of a coagulation pathway, with the "intrinsic" side acting as amplfication.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    OSCEs done. Think I ****ed up my abdo exam because the examiner kept asking me questions and interrupting my stride. Jumbled up the sequence making it a little messy and completely forgot to mention I would attempt to elicit shifting dullness/fluid thrills if there was ascites. Oops. All of the other stations went alright though.
    Should be OK if you only (think you) mucked up on one station though?

    Got mine next week...!
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Should be OK if you only (think you) mucked up on one station though?

    Got mine next week...!
    Formative anyway, tbh. I just don't want to be making these mistakes as we're hitting the wards from next week.
 
 
 
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