Do you consider UKIP good or bad? Watch

geokinkladze
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#861
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#861
(Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE)
Unless there were scientifically, indisputably backed reasons for enabling the sex discrimination then yes that party would be sexist
Que? Reasons such as?
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Jammy Duel
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#862
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
Most people who tell me they would consider voting UKIP would have voted Labour most, if not all their lives.


I think the UKIP effect on Labour is being seriously underestimated by some. The effect on Tories are in Tory heartlands.. they are hardly going to swing to Labour. Labour probably won't finish second in such seats never mind first.

However in Northern seats, Labour heartlands, UKIP have already come a strong second at by elections.
The north isn't hte Labour heartlands, the cities are, even in '97 Labour didn't exactly win a great number of rural seats, even in the north; even in the north those living in rural areas will still tend to be wealthier people who will, on the whole, have much more reason to vote Conservative than Labour.
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physicsmaths
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#863
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Nope, UKIP are horrendous. Hate them, Labour all the way.


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geokinkladze
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
The north isn't hte Labour heartlands, the cities are, even in '97 Labour didn't exactly win a great number of rural seats, even in the north; even in the north those living in rural areas will still tend to be wealthier people who will, on the whole, have much more reason to vote Conservative than Labour.
Look at a map of the country coded by seat any time in the last 30 years.. Labour IS in the North and even in seats that are rural.

Look at Workington for example.. a rural seat in the north which has only ever voted labour except on one famous occaision in 1976.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
Look at a map of the country coded by seat any time in the last 30 years.. Labour IS in the North and even in seats that are rural.

Look at Workington for example.. a rural seat in the north which has only ever voted labour except on one famous occaision in 1976.
They're in the north because you have that massive band that is Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Wakefield etc

That's the map for 2010, not sure which one you've been looking at.
You given one seat, well, look at North Yorkshire, and, in fact, outside Hull, most of East Yorkshire, almost all blue. That stills holds as you roll back the clock

Well, here's 1997 while we're at it. The gaps between the major cities are red, but otherwise the rural areas are still largely blue in the north:
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Smonnie
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
This may or may not be true, depending on what considers when calculating net contribution.

For argument's sake, consider it to be true, how does that help a local authority plan for school places?
Because the local authority has more income. Obviously.

I'm no big immigration defender and would like to see us go to an Australian-style system of talents, but to use immigration as a byword for all that's wrong with this country is as false as it is unethical.
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InnerTemple
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
No. The question was a logical extension of the prior question.. i.e if you don't think people should be prosecuted based on nationality and you don't differentiate between nationality and race*.. then logically you don't believe in prosecution based on race.
I disagree - the distinction between nationality and race is important. If it is the case that Farage sees the two as one and the same, that's very troubling.

In any event, the result is the same... Farage does want to see an end to laws which outlaw racial discrimination.

(Original post by geokinkladze)
Farage wants to push a "British jobs for British people" agenda. Under the existing law that can't happen. I take it he isn't confused.
Maybe it is just you who is confused then. Because you said that under the current law, one can "prosecute people who discriminate based on race but not those who discriminate based on nationality."

That's not true.


(Original post by geokinkladze)
If you want to take that as meaning racial discrimination then that is your opinion. It isn't mine.

Farage wants British people to be given priority for work in Britain. The current law ties Nationality and Race together. In order for Farage to get what he wants that law will need to be abolished. It seems logical to
He was not referring to nationality. Or else he would not have mentioned colour.

He was very clearly referring to race. Now if he wanted to make the distinction between nationality and race, he could have done. But he did not.

I'll ask you a question: Under UKIP would discrimination on the grounds of RACE be illegal?
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DaveSmith99
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#868
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
Most people who tell me they would consider voting UKIP would have voted Labour most, if not all their lives.


I think the UKIP effect on Labour is being seriously underestimated by some. The effect on Tories are in Tory heartlands.. they are hardly going to swing to Labour. Labour probably won't finish second in such seats never mind first.

However in Northern seats, Labour heartlands, UKIP have already come a strong second at by elections.


UKIP are taking almost 5 times as many votes from the Conservatives than they are from Labour, they're even taking more votes from the Liberal Democrats than they are from Labour.
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plstudent
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#869
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#869
(Original post by Rooster523)
UKIP are bad because:

1) They wish to remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the EU court of human rights. You heard me, UKIP wants the UK not to have to abide by laws that protect fundamental human rights and freedoms.

2) 'No to political correctness'- basically they'd like to create a platform where racist/homophobic/islamaphobic statements are no longer frowned upon. They say PC stifles free speech, I say not having it segregates society.

3) Their entire immigration policy is based on fear and intolerance. 'Immigrants put pressure on the healthcare system'- Nope, the elderly put pressure on the healthcare system and arguably, the NHS wouldn't function without immigrants.- this is one example, there's many more but I'm not really in the mood to list every single one.

4) Their policies are based on idealisms, not realisms. They want lower taxes but more police on the streets, improved roads. Fair enough- but where's that money going to come from?

5) Their immigration policy will see an increase in homelessness and crimes committed by immigrants. 'Immigrants must financially support themselves for 5 years before receiving state help'. Example: A migrant worker works in the UK for 2 years, brings his family here, things are looking good. Company he works for gets made redundant, can no longer afford things, is not entitled to benefits or any state help. Begins stealing to provide for his family.


Just a few I can think of off the top of my head
Wow. You actually compare native Brits who payed taxes to the country to total aliens and write as if both should have the same rights to for example health care. Unbelievable leftist stupidity right there.

It's no wonder you also support speech laws against speaking about ethnic differences, for example. You want people to be brainwashed into politically correct ortodoxia with no alternative out and no reasonable debate taking place. If possible at all, you would have it like Sweden where the media doesn't even touch stories like these:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-s...shire-28939089
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...fare-home.html

Also, what on Earth is the "EU court of human rights". There is no such thing. There is the ECHR which has nothing to do with the EU. You likely have never studied law to begin with.

On topic: of course UKIP are a good thing. Such parties are needed now more than ever when Europeans are becoming a minority in their own countries and heading towards extinction if present trends don't change. Nobody wants to become a minority in his own country so it is only natural that opposition to this massive immigration will grow.
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InnerTemple
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(Original post by plstudent)
On topic: of course UKIP are a good thing. Such parties are needed now more than ever when Europeans are becoming a minority in their own countries and heading towards extinction if present trends don't change. Nobody wants to become a minority in his own country so it is only natural that opposition to this massive immigration will grow.
What is it you are scared of?

EU migration or migration from outside the EU?
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geokinkladze
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#871
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(Original post by Smonnie)
Because the local authority has more income. Obviously.

I'm no big immigration defender and would like to see us go to an Australian-style system of talents, but to use immigration as a byword for all that's wrong with this country is as false as it is unethical.
PLAN. How does more income help you PLAN?
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Rooster523
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#872
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(Original post by plstudent)
Wow. You actually compare native Brits who payed taxes to the country to total aliens and write as if both should have the same rights to for example health care. Unbelievable leftist stupidity right there.

It's no wonder you also support speech laws against speaking about ethnic differences, for example. You want people to be brainwashed into politically correct ortodoxia with no alternative out and no reasonable debate taking place. If possible at all, you would have it like Sweden where the media doesn't even touch stories like these:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-s...shire-28939089
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...fare-home.html

Also, what on Earth is the "EU court of human rights". There is no such thing. There is the ECHR which has nothing to do with the EU. You likely have never studied law to begin with.

On topic: of course UKIP are a good thing. Such parties are needed now more than ever when Europeans are becoming a minority in their own countries and heading towards extinction if present trends don't change. Nobody wants to become a minority in his own country so it is only natural that opposition to this massive immigration will grow.
Holy thread resurrection Batman!


You're writing as though A) everyone in Britain pays taxes and B) non-native Brits aren't people as well. I do not want to live in a country that denies people healthcare based on where that person comes from. Simple as. Do you think you're more entitled to healthcare?

No I don't want people to be brainwashed at all. I do want people to be able live in a society that doesn't alienate them based on where they come from or what they believe. Brainwashing is what happens when intolerance is allowed to be spread- to prove Godwin's law and look at the Nazi's: most of the country's problems were blamed on the Jews, intolerance became the norm and even if you ignore the genocide, Jews were treated as second rate citizens in their own country. That is not acceptable and I do not want this country to become a platform for people to be able to create friction in society based on their own prejudices.

As for the EU court of human rights, IDK, it was a long time ago I made the post, I know it's not related to the EU, I'll just pop back 10 months in the past and ask myself why I chose to word it like that. No, I don't do law, I never claimed to have. The point still stands, however- UKIP thinks we shouldn't abide by human rights laws.

'Nobody wants to become a minority in their own country' well if you think that living with people who are a different skin colour is a bad thing then yes, I suppose you're right.


Love your neighbour as yourself.
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plstudent
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#873
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
What is it you are scared of?

EU migration or migration from outside the EU?
I'm not afraid of anything. I simply don't want the British to become a minority in Gerat Britain. How could that possibly be good for the Brits?

Why are you so afraid of voting for UKIP then? It's long due white men begin standing up for our own interests.
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Jammy Duel
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#874
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(Original post by plstudent)
I'm not afraid of anything. I simply don't want the British to become a minority in Gerat Britain. How could that possibly be good for the Brits?

Why are you so afraid of voting for UKIP then? It's long due white men begin standing up for our own interests.
What is a "British" person then? And using the answer I expect "we" still outnumber the immigrants 20:1, but then by the time that comes to 1:1 it won't really be 1:1 because many of them will then be British, that is assuming we reach that point, although, you might be able to say we already have.

Britain has been an island of immigrants for thousands of years

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geokinkladze
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#875
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
They're in the north because you have that massive band that is Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Wakefield etc
No, they're in the north because they are closer to the north poll than Bristol or Leicester for example, which are also cities but aren't in the north and aren't Labour Heartland seats.

So you think the heartlands are cities? So in between Liverpool and Manchester.. in the areas commonly referred to as Merseyside, Lancashire and Greater Manchester. The people that live in those (non city) areas, why do they historically vote Labour?

These areas commonly have little to do with any nearby Cities. Leigh for example is smack bang in the middle of Manchester and Liverpoool. It has one direct bus route to Manchester (it has another bus route that winds it's way via other towns). It has no bus route to Liverpool. It is in effect a series of small districts surrounded by farmland. It consistently votes Labour as does the nearby town of Wigan and the surrounding townships. Why? It's very simple really if you no anything about these towns and their history. The same can be said more generally for other northern towns.

People can link to polls all they want.. but I prefer to look at actual results. The nearest by election to these towns is Pemberton in 2013..

Look at those results:

http://www.englishelections.org.uk/e.../pemberton.php
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InnerTemple
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(Original post by plstudent)
Why are you so afraid of voting for UKIP then? It's long due white men begin standing up for our own interests.
I'm pro-EU - that's probably the biggest reason.

Anyway, I didn't think UKIP was a party about race... that's more of a BNP kinda thing.
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billydisco
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#877
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
I'm pro-EU - that's probably the biggest reason.

Anyway, I didn't think UKIP was a party about race... that's more of a BNP kinda thing.
Why are you pro EU?

I want free trade, I don't want Europeans running our country.The last time I checked Britain defeated Germany in WW2, yet now Germany runs Europe! wtf
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geokinkladze
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#878
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
I disagree - the distinction between nationality and race is important. If it is the case that Farage sees the two as one and the same, that's very troubling.
Farage didn't say he saw the two as the same.. he says he sees one, he doesn't recognise the other.


(Original post by InnerTemple)
In any event, the result is the same... Farage does want to see an end to laws which outlaw racial discrimination.
Want in the sense of feeling it is a necessity, I'd agree. Want in the sense of desire, I'd say I disagree.


(Original post by InnerTemple)
Maybe it is just you who is confused then. Because you said that under the current law, one can "prosecute people who discriminate based on race but not those who discriminate based on nationality."
No I didn't. It's not the first time you've quoted out of context. What I actually said was:

(Original post by Geokinkladze )
Farage is critical on how the law can be used to prosecute people who discriminate based on race but not those who discriminate based on nationality.



(Original post by InnerTemple)
I'll ask you a question: Under UKIP would discrimination on the grounds of RACE be illegal?
I'd say if UKIP changed the law then no it wouldn't. But it WOULD be possible for public services to hire based on nationality. Which is the vision that they are pushig for,
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Jammy Duel
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#879
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
Given the choice, I'd take an actual result over a poll any day of the week.

So here's an actual result from a Labour heartland seat. The startling figure is the change in vote below:

Result

Candidate Votes Vote % Change
I'm on my phone do I can't decipher it, but by any chance does it show most kippers coming from labour? Oh, what a surprise, how many more votes did they have than the Tories in 2010, 5x? How about going and looking at a margibal where things aren't as obviously bias, or why not the extensive research that has been done on it...

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geokinkladze
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#880
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(Original post by DaveSmith99)
UKIP are taking almost 5 times as many votes from the Conservatives than they are from Labour, they're even taking more votes from the Liberal Democrats than they are from Labour.

Given the choice, I'd take an actual result over a poll any day of the week.

So here's an actual result from a Labour heartland seat. The startling figure is the change in vote at the bottom

http://www.englishelections.org.uk/e.../pemberton.php
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