The I-SOC (Islamic Society) XIII

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    Not everyone around us will be covered or even Muslims (even Muslims themselves some don't follow the rules of covering properly), hence we should always lower our gaze insha'Allah. On top, even if the person is well covered still we have to insha'Allah remember our haya.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    I agree with this viewpoint. Not to say that women can't wear the niqab, but in an era of terrorism, the need to monitor the general public and heightened islamophobia, as it's not a requirement I don't see any good coming of it.
    Of course, that's what I was getting at. My discussion was primarily focusing on the extent of modesty in Islam. Islam itself doesn't advise it.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    I agree with this viewpoint. Not to say that women can't wear the niqab, but in an era of terrorism, the need to monitor the general public and heightened islamophobia, as it's not a requirement I don't see any good coming of it.
    Brother, Islam will remain as it is. No need for alteration because of humans.
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    (Original post by h333)
    Brother, Islam will remain as it is. No need for alteration because of humans.
    Technically, there isn't really any alteration to islam by advising something that isn't well reinforced by many scholars and something that isn't in the Quran. I think culture and context plays a huge role in this.
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    (Original post by Tpos)
    Ameen, jzk!
    It's been pretty emotional and bittersweet, I didn't want this phase of my life to end but graduation itself was a great day. It was wonderful to be able to celebrate with my family and friends. I'd been told by a number of people that graduation day/the ceremony is boring but I found it very enjoyable, and pretty hectic. Basically, the day was spent taking pictures. lool. But yh, I almost made it throughout the whole day without crying (the speech at the ceremony got me pretty close) but then my brother gave me a little speech which led to tears streaming down my face haha
    BarakAllahu Feeki
    So happy for you Alhamdulillah.
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    (Original post by h333)
    Brother, Islam will remain as it is. No need for alteration because of humans.
    That's not true though is it? Islam does have to (and does advocate) moving with the times, as long as the fundamentals aren't comprimised and nothing that was previously haraam is made hala, or vice-verca.


    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Of course, that's what I was getting at. My discussion was primarily focusing on the extent of modesty in Islam. Islam itself doesn't advise it.

    Yep. That's where the flexibility of Islam comes in that many people, including a lot of Muslims, fail to realise.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Well so could the hijab and other religious clothing.

    I don't agree with his reasoning.

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    You raise a good point there, but then one could argue that the extent of modesty also plays a part.

    Someone wearing a niqab is more likely to attract unnecessary attention to themselves on a busy street in central london than someone wearing just a hijaab.

    Which defeats the point of covering yourself in the first place.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    I agree with this viewpoint. Not to say that women can't wear the niqab, but in an era of terrorism, the need to monitor the general public and heightened islamophobia, as it's not a requirement I don't see any good coming of it.
    Some Muslims do see it as a requirement though, so although you may not see any good coming from it, others will.

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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    You raise a good point there, but then one could argue that the extent of modesty also plays a part.

    Someone wearing a niqab is more likely to attract unnecessary attention to themselves on a busy street in central london than someone wearing just a hijaab.

    Which defeats the point of covering yourself in the first place.
    Well if the purpose is to not to show body parts to others. Then it is achieved because even if people were to look, they'd never see anything. So the point is very much there

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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    You raise a good point there, but then one could argue that the extent of modesty also plays a part.

    Someone wearing a niqab is more likely to attract unnecessary attention to themselves on a busy street in central london than someone wearing just a hijaab.

    Which defeats the point of covering yourself in the first place.
    But your intention isn't to cause attraction so you're not at fault.

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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Technically, there isn't really any alteration to islam by advising something that isn't well reinforced by many scholars and something that isn't in the Quran. I think culture plays a huge role in this.
    With the niqab, a woman if she chooses to can wear it but if she is required not to under certain circumstances eg for identity purposes, then she should show her face.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Some Muslims do see it as a requirement though, so although you may not see any good coming from it, others will.

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    It's not said anywhere that it's a requirement. As the user above said, men are told to lower their gaze as they walk by women. If they were wearing a niqab, why would we need to lower our gazes? The point is, in the UK and Western Europe especially, wearing it does more harm than good.


    (Original post by HAnwar)
    But your intention isn't to cause attraction so you're not at fault.

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    It is when you explicitly know that it will cause attention (which EVERYBODY living in the West now does).
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    But your intention isn't to cause attraction so you're not at fault.

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    Of course. But the point still stands, is it really necessary in western society?
    Do we really need to go these extremes for modesty?
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    (Original post by h333)
    With the niqab, a woman if she chooses to can wear it but if she is required not to under certain circumstances eg for identity purposes, then she should show her face.
    I'm not questioning choice. That's another matter. If people want to wear a niqab that's fine by me.

    I'm questioning the reliability of the claim that covering beyond the extent of the hijaab/khimaar is necessary.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Of course. But the point still stands, is it really necessary in western society?
    Do we really need to go these extremes for modesty?
    I would not throw the word extreme around so easily. Not for no reason do a reasonable number of scholars say it's obligatory, and even amongst the ones that don't say it's compulsory, many(if not the majority) say it's recommended.

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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    It's not said anywhere that it's a requirement. As the user above said, men are told to lower their gaze as they walk by women. If they were wearing a niqab, why would we need to lower our gazes? The point is, in the UK and Western Europe especially, wearing it does more harm than good.




    It is when you explicitly know that it will cause attention (which EVERYBODY living in the West now does).
    There are some scholars who have said it's a requirement, so if Muslim women want to wear it then good for them.

    No it isn't lol
    No woman wakes up one day and thinks 'Let me put this niqab on so I can get lots of looks on the street.'

    I don't understand what you have against Muslim women living their lives the way they want to lol ?
    You did this on one of your previous threads too.

    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Of course. But the point still stands, is it really necessary in western society?
    Do we really need to go these extremes for modesty?
    So taking that extra step for Allah (SWT) is extreme now lol

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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    I would not throw the word extreme around so easily. Not for no reason do a reasonable number of scholars say it's obligatory, and even amongst the ones that don't say it's compulsory, many say it's recommended.

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    If we were talking about the middle east then you'd be right there. By western definitions of modesty, a niqab is considered extreme when you look at the standard for modesty in the streets. Where do most of these scholars get their evidence from?"O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful." 33:59It doesn't mention anything about covering parts of your face here?

    The most the quran ever talks about when it comes to modesty in women is the idea of women needing to wear a khimar. (which is completely compatible in western society)
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    I'm not questioning choice. That's another matter. If people want to wear a niqab that's fine by me.

    I'm questioning the reliability of the claim that covering beyond the extent of the hijaab/khimaar is necessary.
    It is not about necessity with the niqab, it is recommended so a Muslim can't really say it is extreme or not necessary entirely.

    For example, some things in Islam are not obligatory but recommended so if the Muslim really wants to operate it, another Muslim should encourage them not make them feel like they are wasting their time or something astaghfirullah.

    May Allah guide, forgive us and bless his mercy on us at times of difficulties. Ameen.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    There are some scholars who have said it's a requirement, so if Muslim women want to wear it then good for them. .

    No it isn't lol
    No woman wakes up one day and thinks 'Let me put this niqab on so I can get lots of looks on the street.'

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    And the vast majority have said it isn't. Scholars from all 4 schools of thought have said that it is not a requirement to wear it. The fact that women have to have their face exposed in a state of ihram also suggests this.

    ''And say to the believing women to lower their gazes and guard their chastity, and let them not display of their charm- except what is apparent.''

    Apparent is widely believed by the VAST majority of Scholars to mean the face and hands.


    Well they clearly do. Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows walking into town centre will bring attention upon yourself, so you're either lying or deluded if you think that's not gonna be the end result. That's how life works, we need to move with the times.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    There are some scholars who have said it's a requirement, so if Muslim women want to wear it then good for them.

    No it isn't lol
    No woman wakes up one day and thinks 'Let me put this niqab on so I can get lots of looks on the street.'

    I don't understand what you have against Muslim women living their lives the way they want to lol ?
    You did this on one of your previous threads too.



    So taking that extra step for Allah (SWT) is extreme now lol

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    But how do you know Allah has commanded the muslim women to cover their faces when it's not even mentioned in the Quran?

    " Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof..." 24:30-31

    According to the majority of contemporary scholars 'what is apparent of it' means the hands and face.

    'Scholars holding this view also state that it is well accepted by all scholars that the Prophet categorically forbade people from covering their faces or hands during hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. If it was necessary that the hands and face be covered at all times, he would not have stated its impermissibility during one of the most sacred points of a person's life.

    It is also generally held by the majority of scholars, including those that believe niqab is obligatory, that covering the face during the five daily prayers is also prohibited.Another strong indication that niqab is not an obligation is presented in this hadith:

    Abdullah bin Abbas reports that the Prophet was riding a camel with Al-Fadhl, Abdullah's brother, behind him. A beautiful woman came to ask the Prophet about the Hajj of her father.

    Al Fadhl began to stare at her; her beauty impressed him a lot. The Prophet (peace be upon him) having noticed this while Al Fadhl was busy looking, put his hand behind and turned his face away from her hither and thither as she went along with them. Al Abbas said to the Prophet, "you are twisting the neck of your nephew!"

    The Prophet replied, "I noticed that both the boy and the girl were young; and I feared that Satan may intervene".
    Tirmidhi and Bukhari '

    Scholars argue that the Prophet controlled the boy Al Fadhl's gaze, but didn't mention the fact that the woman was not covering her face. As a rule, anything that Prophet Muhammad stays silent about is tacit approval. This hadith would seem to indicate strongly that niqab is not obligatory.
 
 
 
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