Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
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NO (632)
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Midlander
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#8861
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#8861
(Original post by Boab)
Or even better, don't have to pay it at all. :rolleyes:
My point is that you aren't obliged to pay up front so this idea of not affording it just isn't true. University is expensive for many things but tuition isn't one of them. Accommodation a pretty substantial one with St Andrews charging £6k for standard catered halls, as an example.


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Boab
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#8862
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#8862
(Original post by flugelr)
You claim to be a university student, yet you are unable to understand the student loans system.

In anyone's book that is pathetic.
I do understand it. I do not wish to take on £27k of debt thank you!
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Midlander
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#8863
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#8863
(Original post by arfah)
Care to state why it's nonsense?
Scotland sends 59 MPs out of a possible 650, England and Wales send a combined 573. Labour therefore doesn't need Scotland to get in and very rarely has the Scottish vote made a difference to the overall result. Northern Ireland elect from their own and the other Irish parties so this increases the influence of the English vote further.


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Boab
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#8864
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#8864
(Original post by Midlander)
My point is that you aren't obliged to pay up front so this idea of not affording it just isn't true. University is expensive for many things but tuition isn't one of them. Accommodation a pretty substantial one with St Andrews charging £6k for standard catered halls, as an example.


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£6k for catered halls seems quite modest lol


and I never made the argument that it was unaffordable.
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flugelr
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#8865
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#8865
(Original post by Boab)
I do understand it. I do not wish to take on £27k of debt thank you!
As a Scottish student you are going to end up paying more money back than an English student. The English student gets a better maintenance loan than you do yet you, as a Scot, will still pay more money back on average.

Plus, the English student only starts paying back when they get £21k+, and even then they pay an amount proportional to their income. As a Scot you'll be paying back a flat rate as soon as you hit £15k.
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Boab
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#8866
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#8866
(Original post by flugelr)
As a Scottish student you are going to end up paying more money back than an English student. The English student gets a better maintenance loan than you do yet you, as a Scot, will still pay more money back on average.

Plus, the English student only starts paying back when they get £21k+, and even then they pay an amount proportional to their income. As a Scot you'll be paying back a flat rate as soon as you hit £15k.
Simply not true, even going by the argument you posted. English students pay back more as soon as they pass the career threshold of £28k average, which is A LOT of graduates!

Yes the English student does get a better maintenance loan than me, because if you had realised what I had stated already, I don't take one.

Therefore I have NO student debt. Thank you Mr Salmond.
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Boab
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#8867
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#8867
Also seem to be ignoring the point that the £9k limit seems set to rise, and its predicted quite drastically.
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Midlander
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#8868
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#8868
(Original post by Boab)
Simply not true, even going by the argument you posted. English students pay back more as soon as they pass the career threshold of £28k average, which is A LOT of graduates!

Yes the English student does get a better maintenance loan than me, because if you had realised what I had stated already, I don't take one.

Therefore I have NO student debt. Thank you Mr Salmond.
Then you are quite fortunate as I know very few Scots who have managed without SAAS funding to get through university. My funding was roughly half comprised of a grant and the rest was a means tested loan. You also say that £6k is cheap for a catered hall-even with full maintenance I was living out of my overdraft to cover it.

Most people need maintenance loans to afford to attend university. SAAS support isn't that big so a lot of folk have to do part time work or live in their overdrafts to fill the gap. This is independent of tuition and puts off people a lot more as they are upfront costs.


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Boab
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#8869
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#8869
(Original post by Midlander)
Then you are quite fortunate as I know very few Scots who have managed without SAAS funding to get through university. My funding was roughly half comprised of a grant and the rest was a means tested loan. You also say that £6k is cheap for a catered hall-even with full maintenance I was living out of my overdraft to cover it.

Most people need maintenance loans to afford to attend university. SAAS support isn't that big so a lot of folk have to do part time work or live in their overdrafts to fill the gap. This is independent of tuition and puts off people a lot more as they are upfront costs.


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I am fortunate, but not unique. I know many at Dundee University who don't take the loan, preferring to remain at home and save that money. They get by, by getting part time jobs and paying their parents some board (well some of them!) to keep them happy. Often these are the ones from less affluent areas of the city.
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Boab
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#8870
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#8870
The English students on the other hand seem thoroughly miffed that they have to pay when nobody else does. Weird that!
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Midlander
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#8871
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(Original post by Boab)
I am fortunate, but not unique. I know many at Dundee University who don't take the loan, preferring to remain at home and save that money. They get by, by getting part time jobs and paying their parents some board (well some of them!) to keep them happy. Often these are the ones from less affluent areas of the city.
If you're local to Dundee that's possible but I'd bet that a fair number come from further afield. Those that do are in the position of having to find some way of covering their accommodation, course materials and food for the year off of SAAS and their family. If it wasn't for UK government maintenance loans and grants I couldn't have gone to university anywhere, regardless of the tuition fees being charged.


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flugelr
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#8872
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#8872
(Original post by Boab)
Simply not true, even going by the argument you posted. English students pay back more as soon as they pass the career threshold of £28k average, which is A LOT of graduates!
Yes, but when you are earning £28k+ you can afford to start paying off more.

If you are a Scottish graduate and you are unable to get anything except a low-paying job then you will really struggle to pay back money if you are only on £16k or so.

(Original post by Boab)
Yes the English student does get a better maintenance loan than me, because if you had realised what I had stated already, I don't take one.
You are lucky you have that kind of money.

(Original post by Boab)
I am fortunate, but not unique. I know many at Dundee University who don't take the loan, preferring to remain at home and save that money. They get by, by getting part time jobs and paying their parents some board (well some of them!) to keep them happy. Often these are the ones from less affluent areas of the city.
Surely the point of university is to allow a young person to strike out on their own? What happens to those who come from less well off rural areas?

The fact remains that a poor Scottish kid is less likely to go to uni than a poor English, Welsh or Northern Irish kid.

Either poor Scottish students are stupider than their rUK counterparts, or they are failed by the Scottish education system.
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Midlander
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#8873
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#8873
(Original post by Boab)
The English students on the other hand seem thoroughly miffed that they have to pay when nobody else does. Weird that!
Not quite true considering that Welsh and NI students are charged in Scotland too.


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Boab
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#8874
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#8874
(Original post by flugelr)
The fact remains that a poor Scottish kid is less likely to go to uni than a poor English, Welsh or Northern Irish kid.

Either poor Scottish students are stupider than their rUK counterparts, or they are failed by the Scottish education system.
The fact remains that the NUS supports free tuition, as does pretty much every student I've ever talked to.

Also in an independent Scotland, we would hope to go further, whereas in England you are going to get smashed with even higher fees in the future.
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flugelr
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#8875
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(Original post by Boab)
The fact remains that the NUS supports free tuition, as does pretty much every student I've ever talked to.
Yet we have absolutely no evidence that it makes any difference.

(Original post by Boab)
Also in an independent Scotland, we would hope to go further, whereas in England you are going to get smashed with even higher fees in the future.
Yes, Scotland will be a land of milk and honey.
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Midlander
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#8876
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#8876
(Original post by Boab)
The fact remains that the NUS supports free tuition, as does pretty much every student I've ever talked to.

Also in an independent Scotland, we would hope to go further, whereas in England you are going to get smashed with even higher fees in the future.
The question is how free education is going to be kept affordable in iScotland if it joins the EU. I just don't see how it can without raising taxes considerably. There is also the wider impact upon research going on in Scottish universities. The UK research councils award the institutions disproportionately more than they should get based on Scotland's population-if it leaves the UK it's difficult to see how this research can continue to be funded to the same level.


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Boab
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#8877
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#8877
(Original post by flugelr)
Yet we have absolutely no evidence that it makes any difference.


Yes, Scotland will be a land of milk and honey.
(Original post by Midlander)
I just don't see how it can without raising taxes considerably
-if it leaves the UK it's difficult to see how this research can continue to be funded to the same level.Posted from TSR Mobile
Quite Scotland will be the land of armageddon and bee stings after Independence! :rolleyes:

Mental, why so many of us want it, eh?!
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Midlander
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#8878
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#8878
(Original post by Boab)
Quite Scotland will be the land of armageddon and bee stings after Independence! :rolleyes:

Mental, why so many of us want it, eh?!
Rather than make snide remarks why not address the substance of what people are saying?


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flugelr
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#8879
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#8879
(Original post by Boab)
Quite Scotland will be the land of armageddon and bee stings after Independence! :rolleyes:
From what we've seen so far, it'll be a land of people who avoid answering questions. I'm still waiting to hear about all these military training facilities Scotland has and why we won't have to pay rUK to train Scottish troops.
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Boab
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#8880
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#8880
(Original post by Midlander)
Rather than make snide remarks why not address the substance of what people are saying?


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Really. You are going to come at me with the 'snide remark' accusation?

Shall we go back through this thread to look at whether snide is a predominantly Unionist or Nationalist trait? I think you may lose that one!
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