American Football Talk II

Original post by Wattsy

I always hate these grade things but I'm finding yours particularly irksome jammy (no offence) 1-4 is 100% by the book, I don't see how you can give anything less than B's regardless of your thoughts unless you're really scared by the Winston character issues and the Mariota spread problem. The Oakland C- seems super harsh, they got the best WR in college football, didn't fall for the 1 year wonder with the measurables. Derek Carr needs a consistent weapon. He now has one in Cooper who's a top end WR2 on lowest projections. I have to be a homer with the Jags so I can't really comment there (I'm going to anyway). Consensus evaluation is that Fowler is the best fit and there are no problems with stopping the run which you get with Beasley and the need just wasn't there with Williams; they have Odrick and Marks, the staff also said they thought Fowler and Williams were similar on talent so for them Fowler has been the pick since last Friday.

I'll look at the rest later, I have to go and revise :frown:

The Indy pick makes me happy though, it's so dumb, reciever, with injury history, at 29!?. You need a defence Chuck and you're supposed to be a defensive guy.

No offence taken. It is very early, and I appreciate that you can't judge a draft class until the end of the rookie contracts at least, much less in the hours after day one of the draft -- but I thought some of the picks were really confusing.

1 and 3 were done by the book, but I penalized Oakland and Washington for not taking Leonard Williams. Dante Fowler Jr. was a good pickup, and an expected pick addressing a team need, but I dunno, it seems to be a bit 'meh.' He's raw and it may take him until next season to start producing, or even later, of a third overall selection. He's good against the run, but he's not really a pass rusher....or at least...a pass rusher yet. That's said, I can't exactly hate the pick since it's a team need. Jacksonville also got slightly punished for passing on Leonard Williams too...but because they got a DE, they weren't punished too much though...

Bucs get a B- for Jameis because of the character concerns. Tennessee gets a C- because they could have addressed their biggest need with Leonard Williams, or traded.

I think the right 32 did get drafted in the first round, but the order was...unexpected.

Reply 882

Scott129

13

Original post by jammy4041

Looking at the pro day stuff...Shane Ray is over-rate, because of the freaking SEC. Eli Harold is 100times the athlete he is. Shane Ray is far too slow, and not strong enough. And his 20ss, and three-cone drill are slower than some o-linemen.

Maybe it's because of his injury, but, the numbers disagree with the tape, and suggest that he's over-rated.

If he proves me wrong..great...but....................

You shouldn't read too much into his numbers as the Broncos certainly haven't. He's one of those players who looks slow but, to use the old cliche, "plays fast".

Just watch his tape and look at his first step - easily the best coming out of this draft and arguably will be one of the better ones in the NFL. You just can't teach or coach that and it gives you a massive advantage over the lineman lined up opposite you, no matter how poor your technique or strength is (which both can be improved on).

I think it was a pretty decent value pick, to be honest.

Reply 883

Malevolent

Jam able to shed some more light on Malcom Brown and why you think hes a good pick for us?

I can't pretend I know much about him. :colondollar:

Reply 884

SmashConcept

20

Tennessee did address their biggest need - Mett is not good enough.

I can't believe the Panthers didn't manage to get a tackle. They have Martin and Oher protecting a week-to-week QB. I don't think any immediate upgrade will fall to them in the second.

Nice BPA pick by NYJ as they get a player in pretty much the only position they don't have a need. They could trade Wilk to get other picks now, or they could just have the nastiest DL and secondary in football and hope everyone else can stay healthy enough to get the job done.

Washington took the guy I had them taking. He'll be a tackle and they really needed one. Alfred Morris needs someone good to run behind because he is not the most dynamic playmaker, and he will upgrade their protection too.

Reply 885

Scott129

13

Original post by Malevolent

Jam able to shed some more light on Malcom Brown and why you think hes a good pick for us?

I can't pretend I know much about him. :colondollar:

Top 20 talent that you managed to get with the very last pick of the round. Just a great value pick in a position of need.

Reply 886

Wattsy

OP

Original post by Malevolent

Jam able to shed some more light on Malcom Brown and why you think hes a good pick for us?

I can't pretend I know much about him. :colondollar:

Everything I've read loves this pick! I don't know anything substantive either but the consensus is good.

How are you watching Day 2 if you are? I refuse to pay £30 for 2 days of draft coverage! If it included the 4 pre-season games then I would probably just get GamePass but it doesn't.

Reply 887

Original post by Scott129

You shouldn't read too much into his numbers as the Broncos certainly haven't. He's one of those players who looks slow but, to use the old cliche, "plays fast".

Just watch his tape and look at his first step - easily the best coming out of this draft and arguably will be one of the better ones in the NFL. You just can't teach or coach that and it gives you a massive advantage over the lineman lined up opposite you, no matter how poor your technique or strength is (which both can be improved on).

I think it was a pretty decent value pick, to be honest.

I don't really know what to think of the pick. I can't say I love the pick...but I can understand it. It fulfils a position of need considering Quanterus Smith had to be cut, and Ware's contract, injury-proneness in the 3-4 and general decline in the second half of last season. Outside linebacker absolutely had to be addressed...even if it meant addressing the o-line later in the draft. (some good picks later in the draft. I absolutely would not mind Ali Marpet in the second/early third and Darryl Baldwin even in the fifth/sixth round). I would have to agree, the pick represents good value pick, especially since he was considered a top ten pick. Elway has said that he was in the top ten on the Broncos' big board, and they had a chance to get him later, so they did. Apparently Baltimore really wanted Shane Ray, and when the Broncos traded up to get him, they got really sad. So in the context of AFC rivals crying...it's a good move. Thirdly, Shane Ray will be in a good environment in Denver. Bradley Roby was considered a reach and a trouble maker, this time last year, and the Broncos went and picked him up thinking he'll be a good player. In the environment Denver has, he thrived. There's hope for Shane Ray.

I liked that Elway was gutsy enough to move up. And that, he gave very little up to jump ahead of four teams with similar needs. The Broncos have given away two fifths and a probowl center (who admittedly, doesn't fit their zone block scheme), to trade up 5 spots. Not a bad trade at all, considering.

Everyone says to trust the tape. It doesn't lie...
The highlights flatter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_2ql1WmetU

[video="youtube;JRrM08N038c"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRrM08N038c[/video]

They call him the sack master, but I don't see it. Smash, any thoughts? What do you see here? What am I missing?

I can't see it on tape. I really have to question how he was considered so highly, by everyone though, since he looked more like a second or third round pick.

Mizzouri has a great d-line and a great pedigree. It's a well coached unit, and its well conditioned. The conditioning is excellent.

Against Florida, (2 sacks, 1 forced fumble, one blocked XP), even though Shane Ray beat DJ Humphries for two sacks, consistently, my eyes were drawn to how good Humphries protected, and quite frankly, dominated Shane Ray. Only when the line tire did Shane Ray start getting anything, and for most part Humphries did better than Ray even then. Ray had a mixed bag, and Humphries was probably the best left tackle who he went up against in the SEC, but, he'll face bigger, stronger, and more athletic tackles, than even Humphries in the NFL. Ray only got sacks when the whole line blew its assignments, and there was pressure inside, and basically Jeff Driskel went into the sack. There was some good effort, but I was expecting more. He has a great first step and that comes to the fore, but that's about it...

Shane Ray had this annoying move where he'd almost beat the tackle, and then go inside, and take himself out of the play completely. In an 8 minute video detailing all of his plays, I had to wait until 4 minutes in before there was anything positive. The positives were good and there was one where he blasted round the outside and attacked the QB, which was a 'wow' play, but Driskel could have got rid of the ball.

There have been people who have suggested that he's better than Vic Beasley. How? Vic Beasley was triple teamed against FSU and still had a better game against Cameron Erving, than Shane Ray. He cons

It was annoying to see him almost beat the tackle, and then fail to finish the play, and I mean that against the run or in terms of pass protection. In terms of tape, Mizzou's #90 looked the best on that line, and Golden looked good too (although admittedly, Golden went up against the right tackle.)

Against South Carolina, he showed hardly anything at all from the outside. He was moved inside and, at 245lbs, played a lot of tackle, and he was able to use his relative speed to get around the QB. The instincts against the run...were lacking however. He had a few sacks late in the game, where he rounded the tackle, which was nice to see, but it was a 'meh' performance.

He looked better against Kentucky, I will give him that, but he's sooooooooo frustrating to watch. We all know he has talent, and yet, he's taking all of these plays off. Golden had more 'wow' plays. The same weaknesses come to the fore. He wouldn't help the Broncos deal with the mobile QBs such as Russell Wilson who have been the defense's kryptonite for a few years now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmmItcnBakk

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 888

TheGiantPunkGooner

10

Anyone know anything about Ereck Flowers? Is he any good? I know pretty much nothing about college footballers...

Reply 889

Original post by Wattsy

Everything I've read loves this pick! I don't know anything substantive either but the consensus is good.

How are you watching Day 2 if you are? I refuse to pay £30 for 2 days of draft coverage! If it included the 4 pre-season games then I would probably just get GamePass but it doesn't.

It will be on ESPN, so there should be a few streams available.

Original post by Malevolent

Jam able to shed some more light on Malcom Brown and why you think hes a good pick for us?

I can't pretend I know much about him. :colondollar:

I have to agree with the consensus here. I wouldn't have said it fulfils a position of need, but now the Pats have a very solid defensive line.Malcom Brown projects as a three-tech defensive tackle. He has great size and athleticism for a big man, and he knows how to get to the QB. If Miami are happy that they got Suh, the Patriots will be delighted that they effectively picked up the next Suh.

Mixed game against Arkansas, but he has a lot of potential due to his athleticism, and well, Arkansas has a bigger o-line than every single NFL team. What I particularly like is that he's usually able to get off the block quickly and react to the play. For the Patriots, he's also versatile. He can play 3-4 end or 4-3 tackle and be effective. Bill's delighted to have him.

And as a positive, Rex Ryan is really crying right now, that two of the best tackle prospects in the draft landed in the AFC East.

[VIDEO="youtube;sy5dnXkRt4g"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy5dnXkRt4g[/VIDEO]

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 890

SmashConcept

20

On that video Ray is pretty consistently the fastest DL off the ball, which is great. You're right to say Humphries looks very good against him, and maybe that means I need to revise my opinion on him and say the Cardinals made a good pick. Ray tries a little club/swim a couple of times and just gets stonewalled by a strong punch, which I would have said Humphries wasn't capable of from the other video I watched of him (can't remember which team). Ray's two big plays here are both just straight speed rushes, and one of them honestly looks more like a blown assignment with Humphries undersetting the QB's drop and basically allowing a free hit. He has the beginnings of good technique against the run in terms of pad level and stacking blockers, but clearly he isn't a beast. He plays his assignment quite mechanically in the run game and like you say, doesn't have great instincts. What I mean by this is on the very first play he looks like he is reducing his shoulder nicely at a good pad level and taking leverage to spill the runner to the outside, then he gets pancaked by the fullback and I'm not sure why. I think he just slips, but he turns his shoulders so far that he really is playing purely a spill assignment, and he doesn't seem to understand that he should be able to attack the full back more head on and spill it while leaving himself a chance to make the play himself.

His hips actually look very fluid in the two instances he drops into coverage and he will do that job better than Clowney, who was asked to do it a couple of times and looked uncomfortable (including when he drilled it at his pro day). Obviously this angle doesn't give much insight onto what he did after he dropped back. If the Broncos have more film and information on that they could think that his athleticism makes him a versatile outside linebacker who can cover, rush and play the run. He's obviously not big enough to play DE in the NFL anyway. If he's 245 lbs then maybe he can get up to 260, which will make it less easy to just knock his hands away on the swim move which is the one he has developed furthest in. His spin move is non-existent.

I can't say if he's a good pick or a bad pick, but I think he'll be a relatively unglamorous one. He won't be a big sack leader in the NFL for a good few years and maybe even ever, but you might be pleasantly surprised to find that he develops into a solid linebacker you don't need to worry about.

Reply 891

Original post by SmashConcept

On that video Ray is pretty consistently the fastest DL off the ball, which is great. You're right to say Humphries looks very good against him, and maybe that means I need to revise my opinion on him and say the Cardinals made a good pick. Ray tries a little club/swim a couple of times and just gets stonewalled by a strong punch, which I would have said Humphries wasn't capable of from the other video I watched of him (can't remember which team). Ray's two big plays here are both just straight speed rushes, and one of them honestly looks more like a blown assignment with Humphries undersetting the QB's drop and basically allowing a free hit. He has the beginnings of good technique against the run in terms of pad level and stacking blockers, but clearly he isn't a beast. He plays his assignment quite mechanically in the run game and like you say, doesn't have great instincts. What I mean by this is on the very first play he looks like he is reducing his shoulder nicely at a good pad level and taking leverage to spill the runner to the outside, then he gets pancaked by the fullback and I'm not sure why. I think he just slips, but he turns his shoulders so far that he really is playing purely a spill assignment, and he doesn't seem to understand that he should be able to attack the full back more head on and spill it while leaving himself a chance to make the play himself.

His hips actually look very fluid in the two instances he drops into coverage and he will do that job better than Clowney, who was asked to do it a couple of times and looked uncomfortable (including when he drilled it at his pro day). Obviously this angle doesn't give much insight onto what he did after he dropped back. If the Broncos have more film and information on that they could think that his athleticism makes him a versatile outside linebacker who can cover, rush and play the run. He's obviously not big enough to play DE in the NFL anyway. If he's 245 lbs then maybe he can get up to 260, which will make it less easy to just knock his hands away on the swim move which is the one he has developed furthest in. His spin move is non-existent.

I can't say if he's a good pick or a bad pick, but I think he'll be a relatively unglamorous one. He won't be a big sack leader in the NFL for a good few years and maybe even ever, but you might be pleasantly surprised to find that he develops into a solid linebacker you don't need to worry about.

Alright, thanks for that.

Reply 892

Hm...Jags got TJ Yeldon. Nice pick up. Dude was a beast at Bama.

Reply 893

Malevolent

Patriots with the annual Who the **** is that DB pick.

Reply 894

Wattsy

OP

Original post by jammy4041

Hm...Jags got TJ Yeldon. Nice pick up. Dude was a beast at Bama.

I've not seen him again but 3 down RB sounds perfect, reach or not I don't really care, Gus and Dave get their guys, they're not yet in a position to get too cute about it. They had him as their 3rd RB with a bit of a cliff thereafter so they had to jump on him. SEC guys too, that competition can only help the transition to the NFL.

Zane Beadles was iffy at the start of last season, competition from AJ Cann is good for the team. Targets for day 3 have to be a CB who can be converted to FS and OLB, The OLB pickup will be experimental at best if it happens, I feel like we're through most of the talent now after yesterday.

There's the Jags safety. James Sample... no idea who he is again but being better than Josh Evans should not be hard, some of my Northumbria Mustangs friends might play better Safety than Josh Evans, if he's better than Sergio Brown then awesome! He makes the roster at Evans' expense anyway, a bit of rotation and competition never hurt anybody with the right attitude.

BOLD(ish) PREDICTION: The Jets start Bryce Petty at QB over Geno.Smith after their bye week.

Nobody watching Day 3? Day 3 is sometimes the best day! The Jags are killing day 3 again, Reshad Greene fills the slot need. Michael Bennett is apparently awesome and covers Marks until he gets back, goes into the rotation with Marks and Miller when Marks does get back. 2 7's to play with too, 7 last year was the only guy who lacked an impact.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 895

Original post by Wattsy

I've not seen him again but 3 down RB sounds perfect, reach or not I don't really care, Gus and Dave get their guys, they're not yet in a position to get too cute about it. They had him as their 3rd RB with a bit of a cliff thereafter so they had to jump on him. SEC guys too, that competition can only help the transition to the NFL.

Zane Beadles was iffy at the start of last season, competition from AJ Cann is good for the team. Targets for day 3 have to be a CB who can be converted to FS and OLB, The OLB pickup will be experimental at best if it happens, I feel like we're through most of the talent now after yesterday.

There's the Jags safety. James Sample... no idea who he is again but being better than Josh Evans should not be hard, some of my Northumbria Mustangs friends might play better Safety than Josh Evans, if he's better than Sergio Brown then awesome! He makes the roster at Evans' expense anyway, a bit of rotation and competition never hurt anybody with the right attitude.

BOLD(ish) PREDICTION: The Jets start Bryce Petty at QB over Geno.Smith after their bye week.

Nobody watching Day 3? Day 3 is sometimes the best day! The Jags are killing day 3 again, Reshad Greene fills the slot need. Michael Bennett is apparently awesome and covers Marks until he gets back, goes into the rotation with Marks and Miller when Marks does get back. 2 7's to play with too, 7 last year was the only guy who lacked an impact.

The question is, Jags run a zone block. AJ Cann is very slow.

Reply 896

Jay Ajayi to the Dolphins. I don't know why teams got spooked about his knee surgery in 2011. He was a BELLCOW for Boise State for the past few years, can catch and run routes, pick up the blitz. He's a three down back who can do it all. Miami got the steal of the draft. They needed a feature running back, since Miller is just a change of pace guy.

Reply 897

Baltimore, Miami, and New England have absolutely KILLED IT in this draft.

Not bold prediction: DeAndre Carter will have a better season the Breshad Perriman next year. And, the next Steve Smith Sr. gets mentored by Steve Smith Sr. Wow. Loved the pickup of Maxx Williams, and just thought they did well. Baltimore getting Carl Davis means that they mean business. Getting Nick Perry as an Undrafted free agent is darn filthy, because it's great pick up. Trey DePriest as well.

EDIT. Goodness. It gets better and better and better for the Ravens. Darryl Baldwin is one of the best free-agent aquisitions so far. He'll be a backup for now, but he could yet start down the line. Has limited experience, at the OT position, since he's a former defensive end, and then after switching to the offensive line, he was a backup at LT before starting last year at RT. He got better and better as the year went on. Long arms, even for a tackle position, great foot speed, and decent change of direction skills. Baltimore got an absolute bargain, especially with the zone-block system they run.

Miami was able to go with a BPA route, and wow, they killed it. Tony Lippett will serve as good depth in their fragile secondary. I was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo annoyed that Zach Vigil was not drafted, but he'll make the Miami's final 53, and will provide depth at ILB. Great, great player for Utah State. I was really hoping my Broncos would get him. Athletic, and he'll be an absolute MONSTER. And of course, now Miami have a proper thunder and lightning approach, with Jay Ajayi and Lamar Miller. And their big scary d-line gets...even bigger and scarier. By the way, Jay Ajayi will be the biggest steal of the draft.

The pompous Mike Mayock assassinated his draft stock. How can teams be scared of his knee issues, and not be for Todd Gurley? It's rank hypocrisy. Jay Ajayi carried a heavy load at Boise State. His knee can take the strain. He's a third down backer, who had first round value.

Patriots, well, they absolutely killed it. Again. Malcom Brown. Don't sleep on Shaq Mason, or Xzavier Dickson. Trey Flowers was good pick up representing excellent value. Tre' Jackson fortifies their o-line. They addressed their newlyy-found weaknesses in the secondary, and got stronger, and with more depth, in the trenches. Welp. Also, the Nick Saban to Bill Belichick pipeline is still open. And giving the Patriots well-coached players.

Atlanta and Jacksonville had excellent drafts too. Jets get an honorable mention for getting a lot of picks.

Denver will need to find some good players in UDFA. It's a solid class. I can't hate it too much, but there's some picks that were a bit 'meh' especially considering the next players lost. Theere are still positions which needed addressing. Interesting, that they got a lot of corners, and not potential safeties. Maybe Tony Carter will be traded, or cut, and there's more substance to the Bradley Roby and/or Kavon Webster being moved to FS. It's nice that it was addressed.

Nice to see the Broncos sign the big bodied WR Matt Miller as a UDFA and give the undersized, dual threat Grant Hedrick a shot. Even as a tryout, I think Hedrick should be the team's #3 QB. I believe in him to that extent. Excellent mechanics, and he's a QB who would really thrive under Peyton Manning.

Also continues a proud 'Bronco to Bronco' tradition.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 898

..DT..

11

Not going to pretend to Know anything about any of the players we drafted other than Winston, but I'm happy we addressed OL early and then drafted depth that fits the scheme after.

Reply 899

Wattsy

OP