The I-SOC (Islamic Society) XIII

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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    There are some scholars who have said it's a requirement, so if Muslim women want to wear it then good for them.

    No it isn't lol
    No woman wakes up one day and thinks 'Let me put this niqab on so I can get lots of looks on the street.'

    I don't understand what you have against Muslim women living their lives the way they want to lol ?
    You did this on one of your previous threads too.



    So taking that extra step for Allah (SWT) is extreme now lol

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    The niqab is often a very significant barrier to da'wah in the West where the concept of face covering has never been known. It may be recommended but it is not by any means obligatory.

    If a recommended act is a barrier to an obligatory act, one must not sacrifice the fardh for the sunnah.

    That's my view on it.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    No woman wakes up one day and thinks 'Let me put this niqab on so I can get lots of looks on the street.'

    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    Well they clearly do. Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows walking into town centre will bring attention upon yourself, so you're either lying or deluded if you think that's not gonna be the end result. That's how life works, we need to move with the times.
    Now you're just slandering niqabis and attacking their character.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    That's not true though is it? Islam does have to (and does advocate) moving with the times, as long as the fundamentals aren't comprimised and nothing that was previously haraam is made hala, or vice-verca.





    Yep. That's where the flexibility of Islam comes in that many people, including a lot of Muslims, fail to realise.
    Please check my other posts, sorry did not know you quoted me. Anyways, what is recommended and obligatory is and will remain in Islam. If the person can't (or is not allowed) to practice his religion (or a practice within the religion, as it maybe viewed as extreme by law etc) in a place in the future, then the best option is to leave.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Now you're just slandering niqabis and attacking their character.
    Now you're just twisting words and throwing a tantrum because someone disagrees with you.

    If I go into Oxford Street with ''Allahu Akbar'' on my t-shirt, I could be doing it for the love of Allah SWT, but i'd likely be feared; at worst arrested. Would you advise this too?


    (Original post by h333)
    Please check my other posts, sorry did not know you quoted me. Anyways, what is recommended and obligatory is and will remain in Islam. If the person can't (or is not allowed) to practice his religion (or a practice within the religion, as it maybe viewed as extreme by law etc) in a place in the future, then the best option is to leave.
    Not if said practise is optional, and said place still remains the most democratic and ''Islamic'' nation in the world.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    Now you're just twisting words and throwing a tantrum because someone disagrees with you.

    If I go into Oxford Street with ''Allahu Akbar'' on my t-shirt, I could be doing it for the love of Allah SWT, but i'd likely be feared; at worst arrested. Would you advise this too?
    I'm not twisting words and I'm not throwing a tantrum.

    Thats a bad comparison to someone wearing a niqab.
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    (Original post by Biryani007)
    Salaam guys,

    Wondering if there's any legit muslim marriage sites or if all of them are as bad as each other?
    Wa alaikumasalam,

    Some sites that I am aware that are good and have been recommended are:

    http://www.muslimmatrimony.com/
    http://www.sunnahmarriageuk.co/

    I would recommend MuslimMatrimony as it allows you to incorporate your Wali into conversations.

    May Allah make it successful for you and grant you a Spouse that is perfect and ideal for you.
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    (Original post by h333)
    Please check my other posts, sorry did not know you quoted me. Anyways, what is recommended and obligatory is and will remain in Islam. If the person can't (or is not allowed) to practice his religion (or a practice within the religion, as it maybe viewed as extreme by law etc) in a place in the future, then the best option is to leave.
    I fear that may be the case in the years to come. More stringent rules on covering.
    I'm not slandering those who wear the niqab, it's just that the practice of wearing one may do unnecessary harm to them.
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    They may come a time when carrying the Qur'an for some Muslims will be degrading due to the society they live in. Astaghfirullah.
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    (Original post by h333)
    They may come a time when carrying the Qur'an for some Muslims will be degrading due to the society they live in. Astaghfirullah.
    Now that's just a really dumb comparison you're making, reread my argument. In what way did I reject the quran with my argument?
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Of course but many scholars have agreed upon the matter that full face covering(even just excluding eyes) is not even required in islam.

    Allah (swt) asks both men and women to lower their gaze, this suggests their faces are visible, otherwise there would be no sense in it.

    just a thought:

    Scholars holding this view also state that it is well accepted by all scholars that the Prophet (SAW) categorically forbade people from covering their faces or hands during hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. If it was necessary that the hands and face be covered at all times, he would not have stated its impermissibility during one of the most sacred points of a person's life.

    An interesting read from a BBC article:

    "Shaykh Nuh Keller, a Jordanian Shafi'i scholar and translator of Reliance of the Traveller, has put forward a similar argument for women in the West. He says that women should not wear niqab in the West because it can lead to harassment and act as a barrier to inviting people to Islam."
    As far as I remember, there is Ikhtilaaf over whether face covering is fardh or recommended generally, but there is no disagreement that it has basis in Islam.

    Lowering one's gaze is not just limited to the opposite sex, but also any source of fitnah (anything haram which would attract one to do it), therefore the verse is still relevant.

    The exceptions of Hajj and Umrah do not negate the use of veiling generally, as there are still numerous hadith which mention veiling generally normally. If it were the case that prohibitions during Hajj and Umrah were to be a norm, then many more things would be prohibited normally e.g. cutting nails, wearing perfume etc.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    If we were talking about the middle east then you'd be right there. By western definitions of modesty, a niqab is considered extreme when you look at the standard for modesty in the streets. Where do most of these scholars get their evidence from?"O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful." 33:59It doesn't mention anything about covering parts of your face here?

    The most the quran ever talks about when it comes to modesty in women is the idea of women needing to wear a khimar. (which is completely compatible in western society)
    I'm talking about the Islamic definition, that is the only one which matters. I don't care about the western definition of what is extreme or not. Many normal Islamic practices would be labelled extreme if Muslims started using western definitions.

    I don't know, you could ask the ones who view it is as compulsory for evidence. And you could ask the others, who don't view it as compulsory but recommend it, why they hold this stance.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    I'm talking about the Islamic definition, that is the only one which matters. I don't care about the western definition of what is extreme or not. Many normal Islamic practices would be labelled extreme if Muslims started using western definitions.
    But, by the islamic definition of modesty, the obligation of wearing a niqab is still debatable.

    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    I don't know, you could ask the ones who view it is as compulsory for evidence. And you could ask the others, who don't view it as compulsory but recommend it, why they hold this stance.
    Ok, I guess we're at a stalemate with this little debate then.

    Though obviously, at the end of the day, I think it shouldn't be something that's enforced onto people. It should be left as a choice to women to wear or not. Same goes for the Hijaab/Khimaar.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    And the vast majority have said it isn't. Scholars from all 4 schools of thought have said that it is not a requirement to wear it. The fact that women have to have their face exposed in a state of ihram also suggests this.

    ''And say to the believing women to lower their gazes and guard their chastity, and let them not display of their charm- except what is apparent.''

    Apparent is widely believed by the VAST majority of Scholars to mean the face and hands.


    Well they clearly do. Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows walking into town centre will bring attention upon yourself, so you're either lying or deluded if you think that's not gonna be the end result. That's how life works, we need to move with the times.
    Ok even though I believe that to be wrong, that's your opinion.

    (Original post by mercuryman)
    But how do you know Allah has commanded the muslim women to cover their faces when it's not even mentioned in the Quran?

    " Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof..." 24:30-31

    According to the majority of contemporary scholars 'what is apparent of it' means the hands and face.

    'Scholars holding this view also state that it is well accepted by all scholars that the Prophet categorically forbade people from covering their faces or hands during hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. If it was necessary that the hands and face be covered at all times, he would not have stated its impermissibility during one of the most sacred points of a person's life.

    It is also generally held by the majority of scholars, including those that believe niqab is obligatory, that covering the face during the five daily prayers is also prohibited.Another strong indication that niqab is not an obligation is presented in this hadith:

    Abdullah bin Abbas reports that the Prophet was riding a camel with Al-Fadhl, Abdullah's brother, behind him. A beautiful woman came to ask the Prophet about the Hajj of her father.

    Al Fadhl began to stare at her; her beauty impressed him a lot. The Prophet (peace be upon him) having noticed this while Al Fadhl was busy looking, put his hand behind and turned his face away from her hither and thither as she went along with them. Al Abbas said to the Prophet, "you are twisting the neck of your nephew!"

    The Prophet replied, "I noticed that both the boy and the girl were young; and I feared that Satan may intervene".
    Tirmidhi and Bukhari '
    You forgot to finish the verse of Quran
    '...and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna.'
    Some scholars (I think Ibn Taymiyyah is one them) interpret this to mean face as well.

    Yeah but going to Hajj and going out in everyday life is not the same thing. The reasoning is different.

    You can check this out for more information
    https://islamqa.info/en/223954

    (Original post by mercuryman)
    The niqab is often a very significant barrier to da'wah in the West where the concept of face covering has never been known. It may be recommended but it is not by any means obligatory.

    If a recommended act is a barrier to an obligatory act, one must not sacrifice the fardh for the sunnah.

    That's my view on it.
    I never said it was compulsory, some scholars have that view.
    So both dawah + niqab could be seen as compulsory.

    I'll leave it at that.

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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    I'm not twisting words and I'm not throwing a tantrum.

    Thats a bad comparison to someone wearing a niqab.
    It's certainly not 100% yes, but both are examples of doing something for the love of Allah SWT, but maybe in the long term are damaging to our society. Islam is not just about laws and regulations, it's a way of life. It asks you to make things easier upon yourself, to fit into society and to live in harmony with others. If wearing a niqab can prevent these things from happening by creating divisions and a fear of Islam (as well as potentially acting as a massive deterrent to any ladies looking into converting to Islam) then it shouldn't be worn, as many scholars have also said.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    But, by the islamic definition of modesty, the obligation of wearing a niqab is still debatable.



    Ok, I guess we're at a stalemate with this little debate then.

    Though obviously, at the end of the day, I think it shouldn't be something that's enforced onto people. It should be left as a choice to women to wear or not. Same goes for the Hijaab/Khimaar.
    Yes the obligation is debatable but it being recommended is a view that is pretty widespread amongst scholars. So the niqaab can definitely not be called extreme from an Islamic POV and so we should stay away from using such words for it. That's what I'm trying to say. Here's a little snippet from the Islamweb fatwa site about this.

    Wearing Niqaab (covering face) is a religiously desirable act in Islam without any disagreement among the scholars. However, they disagreed about its being an obligation; see the details in Fataawa 85816 and 92400.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    I fear that may be the case in the years to come. More stringent rules on covering. I'm not slandering those who wear the niqab, it's just that the practice of wearing one may do unnecessary harm to them.
    Wearing a niqab if the woman chooses to is not harming them or others, if they are doing with good intention and for the love of Allah swt. As I said if it is required for them to show their face in certain places, then they should. I know some women that wear it in the UK and they don't feel like they are harming themselves at all. It is not their fault if people stereotype, discriminate and show prejudice.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    It's certainly not 100% yes, but both are examples of doing something for the love of Allah SWT, but maybe in the long term are damaging to our society. Islam is not just about laws and regulations, it's a way of life. It asks you to make things easier upon yourself, to fit into society and to live in harmony with others. If wearing a niqab can prevent these things from happening by creating divisions and a fear of Islam (as well as potentially acting as a massive deterrent to any ladies looking into converting to Islam) then it shouldn't be worn, as many scholars have also said.
    It was a pretty bad comparison, probably 100%. Your arguments can be applied to many things that Muslims deem to be obligatory or recommended.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    It was a pretty bad comparison, probably 100%. Your arguments can be applied to many things that Muslims deem to be obligatory or recommended.
    Of course, and I'll say the same thing for all of those as well. What's the problem?
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    Of course, and I'll say the same thing for all of those as well. What's the problem?
    It leads to people giving up Islamic obligations and recommended practices.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Now that's just a really dumb comparison you're making, reread my argument. In what way did I reject the quran with my argument?
    That was not for you just in general as it came to my mind after some pondering.

    I have nothing against you or anyone

    May Allah guide us all. Ameen.
 
 
 
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