Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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FinalMH
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#8981
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#8981
“Scotland can survive as an independent nation, I don’t think anybody doubts that. But I don't think it can be the high income, low tax economy that the Scottish government is telling its people it can," said Mr Dixon

The nationalist can keep dreaming. However if the scottish people accepted this and still want independence then that would be fine . :cool: If they want to pay higher taxes or lose out on current free services then that is fine, however it seem most people believe the opposite....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...bt-burden.html
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MatureStudent36
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#8982
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(Original post by FinalMH)
“Scotland can survive as an independent nation, I don’t think anybody doubts that. But I don't think it can be the high income, low tax economy that the Scottish government is telling its people it can," said Mr Dixon

The nationalist can keep dreaming. However if the scottish people accepted this and still want independence then that would be fine . :cool: If they want to pay higher taxes or lose out on current free services then that is fine, however it seem most people believe the opposite....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...bt-burden.html
I saw that. It's remarkably like the leaked internal SNP document from last year.

http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf


has Swinney republished the amended oil figures that he promised to do.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/...ures-1-3354789
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Maths Tutor
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(Original post by Midlander)
Boab's logic works if you assume every Yes voter is anti-Westminster. I never said that and I don't believe it to be the case.
Permit me to remind you what you said:

(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
There is a difference between being anti-English and anti-Westminster
(Original post by Midlander)
If there is a difference I am yet to see it.
(Original post by Boab)
How about the English who live in Scotland and get a vote? The poll shows 28% of them will vote YES. By your logic they too, are anti-English! How bizarre.
You said there is no difference between being anti-English and anti-Westminster.

Now out of the 28% English voters planning to vote Yes, surely there must be at the very least some who are anti-Westminster, which by YOUR logic makes them anti-English.

Or do you believe that not a single one of the 28% English voter is anti-Westminster?

In which case why do you think they are voting Yes?
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Maths Tutor
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#8984
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)

Next you'll be banging on about the McCrone report.

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Good thing you reminded me about the McCrone report. I had forgotten to mention it for at least a year now.

But I notice that you haven't banged on about the EU legal advice for almost a couple of hours now so perhaps you could mention it in your next post.
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That's the EU that Salmond lied about having legal advice then?
There we go!
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Maths Tutor
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#8985
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#8985
(Original post by euphful)
As I said, you don't need to convince me of the shortcomings of FPTP. I am an advocate of electoral reform and some form of PR.

We had a referendum on electoral reform for General Elections and the country quite resoundingly rejected it, even in Scotland, so for now I have to accept it.
We had a referendum on AV which is nowhere near Proportional representation.

In fact, AV would have been even worse than FPTP. For example,

The Tories (40% support) hate Labour, so they gave their 2nd vote to the Lib Dems.

Labour (40% support) hate the Tories, so they gave their 2nd vote to the Lib Dems.

So in constituency after constituency, the 3rd placed candidate with as little as 20% of the 1st choice vote would have won.

But you would still prefer Scotland to be ruled by an undemocratic Westminster parliament rather than a democratic Scottish parliament, right?

Just like the Scottish Labour MPs and MSPs.

Democracy for the world but not for Scotland.
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Maths Tutor
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Yet the € is a requirement for entry into the EU. Even Boab acknowledges that we'd have to rejoin that.

and here in lies the problem. The SNP are standing for something to be everything to all people. In the event of a yes vote how many people are going to realise they've been led down the garden path ?

I want to stay in the UK as I believe being part of the UK has benefitted us immensely. However it worried me greatly that the political party that is leading the charge fir us to leave isn't coming clean in the slightest and making it up as it goes along. I had more respect for Jim Sillars as at lea the followed the course that he believed in. Salmonds ego is going to cause big problems for is in the event if a yes vote. Even with a no vote, which I'm sure will be returned, I worry about the divisions that he is creating. You only have to look at the delusional rankings of Maths Tutor for that who has convinced himself that we're colonised and being rules by foreigners. people like that tend to act irrationally when they realise their sense of environment, surroundings and shared identity doesn't hold with the majority viewpoint.
Jesus Christ, you MatureStudent36 have even started contemplating a Yes vote??????

Hang on, it is 'Bitter Together' who has been banging on about 'Foreigners'. This is what I had to remind your fellow Thatcherite Midlander:

(Original post by Midlander)
I am a postgrad whose course fees are met by the research council funding my PhD, so I don't pay

anything. My belief is that the union can be made better without breaking it up. A Yes vote will have me made a foreigner and along with the bile and divisive rhetoric coming from Yes campaigners I have no reason to believe that dividing the union is of benefit to anybody.

Just like my views on EU membership. Rather than abandon the project we have to work on making it better.
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
What is wrong with being a 'foreigner'? You are a bigot aren't you? In most parts of the EU these days there are completely open borders and no-one talks about 'foreigners'. If you are not a bigot, why don't you leave such xenophobia to Nigel Farage, The Daily Mail and Margaret Curran?
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Maths Tutor
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#8987
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#8987
(Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
That was in the late 90s he said that, how long are you going to keep playing that card?

The pound is now the best option according to the SNP, that doesn't mean they think it is a huge benefit to continue using it.
Well, the SNP are not allowed to change any policy no matter what.

Labour can be in favour of a council tax freeze before a Scottish general election, be against it soon after, be in favour of it before the Scottish local elections, be against it soon after, be in favour of it and claim credit for it before the Dunfermline byelection and be against it soon after.

But that is OK.

Only the SNP must never, ever change a policy once they have mentioned it. They must never, ever change their mind about anything. That is the law.
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Maths Tutor
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#8988
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#8988
(Original post by Midlander)
Maybe they see it as a primarily pro-Scotland rather than an anti-RUK move, maybe they dislike the union for other reasons, so on and so on. Interested to hear your thoughts on Maths Tutor's assertion that Westminster helped England to steal Scottish territory though.

Having seen the borders, do you think that's what happened or is he spouting anti-English nonsense as per usual?
(Original post by Boab)
He spouts rather less anti-English nonsense than you do anti-Scottish nonsense!
I don't think Midlander will ever see the difference between being anti-Westminster and being anti-English, and between England as a country ruled by Westminster and the English people.

I don't think I have ever posted an anti-English comment anywhere.

But let us see what Midlander has been spouting on this thread:

(Original post by Midlander)
Sorry, I just can't agree with this-even unionist Scots I know still say outrageous things like all English people should be ashamed of murdering Scots in the 14th century. Anglophobia is rife in Scotland and the SNP is of course playing on those sentiments for its own agenda. They forget that England isn't the only other country in this union.
(Original post by Midlander)
Wales is a funny place. Everyone hates England with a burning passion but loves the economic perks of being its neighbour. If it were severed from Britain I wouldn't bat an eyelid.


(Original post by Midlander)
There are times in this thread where I have put forward the idea of England removing itself from the union for this specific reason. Our Celtic friends in Scotland, Wales and Ireland just love to blame England for all that is wrong in and with the UK and a lot of English people get sick of it after a while.
(Original post by Midlander)
a lot of English people get sick of it after a while.
But the ever kind and tolerant Midlander would never ever get sick of Scotland and would never ever let it go, for its own sake of course!!!
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Maths Tutor
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(Original post by Midlander)
Maybe they see it as a primarily pro-Scotland rather than an anti-RUK move, maybe they dislike the union for other reasons, so on and so on. Interested to hear your thoughts on Maths Tutor's assertion that Westminster helped England to steal Scottish territory though.

Having seen the borders, do you think that's what happened or is he spouting anti-English nonsense as per usual?
Assertion or FACT?


(Original post by Maths Tutor)

"The government has been asked to reconsider the decision to transfer 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters off the Berwickshire coast to English jurisdication."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/398670.stm

"In 1999, just before the UK Government devolved a range of domestic powers to Scotland, British Ministers introduced legislation that redrew the previous maritime boundary between Scotland and England.

The new boundary extended 200 miles in a north-west direction and placed 6000 square miles of previously Scottish waters under English legal control.

The move was widely criticised at the time and seen as an attempt by the British Government to secure rights to oil and gas fields in the North Sea should Scotland eventually become independent.

Now the Scottish Government has restated its intention to reclaim the disputed waters in the event of Scottish independence."

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140422/1893...Following.html

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I would say that England stole 6000 square miles of Scottish territory.

Of course by your usual impartial, non-biased and objective standards, you will extrapolate that as me being anti-English. I am not anti-English, I am anti-theft.

I am sure TSR's self styled legal expert L i b will clarify what international law says on this matter.
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Maths Tutor
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#8990
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#8990
(Original post by flugelr)
Although Stuart Campbell is an unberable human being, he isn't the only issue.

I've just looked through the artices posted by Maths Tutor. In both of them, rather than providing evidence by linking to outside sources, almost all of the links in the articles lead to other WoS articles. You end up going round in circles.

Most of the WoS articles I've read in the past have relied on assertion, misrepresenation and downright untruths.
Yes, "unbearable" by 'Bitter Together' because he totally demolishes their every single lie.

MatureStudent36 was so rattled by his lies being exposed by W O S articles, that he got the anti-independence TSR moderator Aj12 to remove my perfectly legitimate posts because they provided RELEVANT links to WoS articles.

The anti-independence TSR moderator Aj12 doesn't have any problems with MatureStudent36 regularly posting links to anti-independence lies in The Scotsman, The Daily Mail, The Daily Telegraph etc.
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Maths Tutor
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#8991
(Original post by MatureStudent36)

Next you'll be banging on about the McCrone report.

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Good thing you reminded me about the McCrone report. I had forgotten to mention it for at least a year now.

But I notice that you haven't banged on about the EU legal advice for almost a couple of hours now so perhaps you could mention it in your next post.
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That's the EU that Salmond lied about having legal advice then?
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
There we go!
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Would that be the non peer reviewed academic articles that are paid for by the SNP.

I mean, we have an academic saying we can get into the EU automatically,but the EU have said no to that and Salmond has lied about it.
There we go yet again!
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euphful
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
We had a referendum on AV which is nowhere near Proportional representation.

In fact, AV would have been even worse than FPTP. For example,

The Tories (40% support) hate Labour, so they gave their 2nd vote to the Lib Dems.

Labour (40% support) hate the Tories, so they gave their 2nd vote to the Lib Dems.

So in constituency after constituency, the 3rd placed candidate with as little as 20% of the 1st choice vote would have won.

But you would still prefer Scotland to be ruled by an undemocratic Westminster parliament rather than a democratic Scottish parliament, right?

Just like the Scottish Labour MPs and MSPs.

Democracy for the world but not for Scotland.
You do love twisting people's words dot you?

If you could kindly refer to the post where I said I was a supporter of electoral reform I'd appreciate it. I'll even go as far as to say I support PR. I support fairer votes. AV would have been the first step towards that.

I believe I said that the country had rejected a referendum on electoral reform. I don't think that's an unfair thing to say; it is true. There is little appetite in the country to ditch FPTP for Westminster elections. I may disagree with it but that's how it is.

I think this is quite funny really. Only you could attack someone for having the same view as you! All because I challenged your questionable assertions regarding landslide results!


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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
There we go!
There we go what? Are you talking at the McCrone report that was secret that consisted of readily available public information.

let's ask the man.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x2F-H01Qm1I
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
There we go yet again!
You seem to be implying that I'm making things up about Salmond lieing in his legal advice about europe

let's see where £20k if taxpayers money got wasted with Salmond trying to hide is lie.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...al-advice.html
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Midlander
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Assertion or FACT?
Look at the boundaries and tell me what the problem is. If the problem is that the boundaries follow the line of the border and don't encroach on Scottish territory, that's fine.


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Midlander
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I don't think Midlander will ever see the difference between being anti-Westminster and being anti-English, and between England as a country ruled by Westminster and the English people.

I don't think I have ever posted an anti-English comment anywhere.

But let us see what Midlander has been spouting on this thread:

But the ever kind and tolerant Midlander would never ever get sick of Scotland and would never ever let it go, for its own sake of course!!!
England ruled by a Westminster composed primarily of English MPs voted for by English people-there is no difference. Your whole grievance with Westminster is that it works in the interests of the English majority and not the Scottish minority in Parliament.

You have already stated that aside from the World Wars, England has been Scotland's only enemy and that England stole Scottish territory with Westminster's help. Seems pretty Anglophobic to me, MT.
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Snagprophet
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#8997
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(Original post by Midlander)
Look at the boundaries and tell me what the problem is. If the problem is that the boundaries follow the line of the border and don't encroach on Scottish territory, that's fine.


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I wouldn't bother, after all it was the 'evil English' led by various incarnations of Alan Rickman who was annexing parts of Scotland.

He doesn't care who was in the cabinet.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Permit me to remind you what you said:

You said there is no difference between being anti-English and anti-Westminster.

Now out of the 28% English voters planning to vote Yes, surely there must be at the very least some who are anti-Westminster, which by YOUR logic makes them anti-English.

Or do you believe that not a single one of the 28% English voter is anti-Westminster?

In which case why do you think they are voting Yes?
You would have to ask those who are polled that, but the union has many things that need fixing besides the Westminster set-up. Maybe these people no longer identified with RUK-or am I giving too much credit to Yes voters to be voting for independence out of something other than hating on Westminster?
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Midlander
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
I wouldn't bother, after all it was the 'evil English' led by various incarnations of Alan Rickman who was annexing parts of Scotland.

He doesn't care who was in the cabinet.
Maths Tutor claiming he has used no anti-English sentiment on this thread was a funny start to my morning at least. He probably agrees that it is right for iScotland to discriminate against RUK students in the EU.
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Boab
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#9000
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Maybe you are right, and maybe Labour voters in Scotland have just given up, so much so that they have decided to vote YES.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/commen...-time.24033699


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