Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Aj12
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#9081
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#9081
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
You know there is a little bit of difference between being "independent" like Finland, and being "fully independent" like North Korea.

As far as I understand, Scottish independence is about being "independent" like Finland, not about being "fully independent" like North Korea.

Perhaps you could point me to some other "fully independent" countries so I can comprehend better.
Why are you talking about north Korea? Any non eu country could be considered fully independent as.the majority have complete control of their borders. The United.states or Australia for example.


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Boab
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#9082
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#9082
(Original post by Aj12)
Why are you talking about north Korea? Any non eu country could be considered fully independent as.the majority have complete control of their borders. The United.states or Australia for example.


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You seem to define being fully independent only by the factor that a country should control its own borders. Why?

As for the United States, you say they have full control of their borders. How effective is that at preventing illegal immigrants?

Germany is an independent country, and to suggest they are not because they welcome open borders is nonsense.
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Boab
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#9083
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#9083
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
So we'll see the SNP go through the motions of distancing themselves from them, whilst simultaneously supporting them.

Remember the retired General who got targeted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...at-attack.html


Or the threats against Academics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...academics.html
Name calling? How utterly dreadful!

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...cked-1-3077094
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MatureStudent36
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#9084
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#9084
(Original post by Boab)
Name calling? How utterly dreadful!

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...cked-1-3077094
Shocking news.

But I'm not seeing elected politicians giving tacit support to that kind of thing.

Its also an argument in a pub. They happen over politics quite a bit, and sport.
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Midlander
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#9085
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#9085
(Original post by Boab)
Name calling? How utterly dreadful!

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...cked-1-3077094
The scourge of the Normans?


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#9086
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#9086
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I am not flogging anything - I am stating what was said by the BBC for example:
The BBC is only quoting what the SNP claimed, and that claim was complete nonsense. Why do you keep repeating it? Why do you not bring forward real evidence that Scottish territory has been stolen and that this wasn't a simple matter of setting things right, and abandoning a traditional limit for a legal one?

This claim was made (and justly ignored) about fifteen years ago; why do you continue to tediously and sententiously bang on about it now, seeking to claim that Scottish territory has been stolen, when you know very well it hasn't? Either come up with the evidence (and not a hollow claim), or shut up about it.

So why change an 'internal' border which had not been changed for 300 years the moment Scotland got devolution?
The real question is why was such an unmerited practice allowed to happen for so long?

Even unionists have to admit that Scotland has a legal boundary with England and her own juridiction:
No. This border only currently demarcates a line where the legal system changes; it has no other significance outside local government.
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#9087
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#9087
(Original post by Midlander)
The scourge of the Normans?


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The strangest and least relevant independence campaign slogan ever. A shocking incident though.
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euphful
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#9088
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#9088
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Does the City of Nottingham have an internationally recognised legal boundary and its own jurisdiction?

Does Shefield have an internationally recognised legal boundary and its own jurisdiction?

Does Wokshop have an internationally recognised legal boundary and its own jurisdiction?

No?

Well, in that case they cannot become independent even if they would like to.

Just as Spain is claiming that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain and cannot have an independence referendum, Westminster would claim that Nottingham, Sheffield and Wokshop are an integral part of England and cannot have an independence referendum.

The independence of Scotland is therefore a slightly different matter than the independence of Nottingham, Sheffield and Wokshop, to say the least.

Even unionists have to admit that Scotland has a legal boundary with England and her own juridiction:
Oh dear. I think you're misunderstanding things again. Indeed you're absolutely right that it's unlikely those areas would have a legitimate claim for independence. But I can't see anything which really gives Scotland a more legitimate claim than any other part of the UK in terms of the principles of self-determination. They've achieved a referendum thanks to democracy and Westminster respecting the fact that the SNP won a majority of seats at the last Scottish election (if not a majority of votes), in terms of international law and the UN, the UK government would have had a legitimate reason for denying such a referendum. Scotland had no legal right to one. So you're argument about 'legal boundaries' is, once again, made up as you go along:

http://www.referendum.ed.ac.uk/does-...ght-to-secede/


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Aj12
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#9089
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#9089
(Original post by Boab)
You seem to define being fully independent only by the factor that a country should control its own borders. Why?

As for the United States, you say they have full control of their borders. How effective is that at preventing illegal immigrants?

Germany is an independent country, and to suggest they are not because they welcome open borders is nonsense.
As I said earlier it is one example of less independence whilst in the EU. I'd say it is a pretty big part of being independent being able to control who can or cannot enter your country.
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cBay
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#9090
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#9090
all this crap about whether or not Scotland has a legal boundary (which it does) or whether it would be becoming fully independant (what does that even mean?), can somebody explain why Scotland should stay in the UK other than the UK's own selfish needs and greed?
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cBay
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#9091
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#9091
(Original post by euphful)
Oh dear. I think you're misunderstanding things again. Indeed you're absolutely right that it's unlikely those areas would have a legitimate claim for independence. But I can't see anything which really gives Scotland a more legitimate claim than any other part of the UK in terms of the principles of self-determination. They've achieved a referendum thanks to democracy and Westminster respecting the fact that the SNP won a majority of seats at the last Scottish election (if not a majority of votes), in terms of international law and the UN, the UK government would have had a legitimate reason for denying such a referendum. Scotland had no legal right to one. So you're argument about 'legal boundaries' is, once again, made up as you go along:

http://www.referendum.ed.ac.uk/does-...ght-to-secede/


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Quoting international law doesn't necessarily mean that international law is right.
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FinalMH
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#9092
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#9092
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...es-eu-scotland

Scotland's First minister loves to deal threats to other countries doesn't he? I wonder how this will pan out.

Full Speech: http://news.scotland.gov.uk/Speeches...urope-bdf.aspx
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Boab
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#9093
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#9093
(Original post by FinalMH)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...es-eu-scotland

Scotland's First minister loves to deal threats to other countries doesn't he? I wonder how this will pan out.

Full Speech: http://news.scotland.gov.uk/Speeches...urope-bdf.aspx
And if you read the whole speech for yourself, you can see it is a speech embracing the EU.

Saying if Scotland wasn't in the EU, then the Common Fisheries Policy wouldn't apply to Scottish waters is no threat but obvious reality.

He was selling Scotland in Europe. To label it as threatening other countries is preposterous!
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Midlander
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#9094
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#9094
(Original post by cBay)
all this crap about whether or not Scotland has a legal boundary (which it does) or whether it would be becoming fully independant (what does that even mean?), can somebody explain why Scotland should stay in the UK other than the UK's own selfish needs and greed?
What greed? The greed that sees Scotland receiving disproportionate levels of public spending courtesy of the Barnett formula?


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Midlander
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#9095
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#9095
(Original post by Boab)
And if you read the whole speech for yourself, you can see it is a speech embracing the EU.

Saying if Scotland wasn't in the EU, then the Common Fisheries Policy wouldn't apply to Scottish waters is no threat but obvious reality.

He was selling Scotland in Europe. To label it as threatening other countries is preposterous!
Just like the SNP saying that no currency union equals no taking on of national debt. No threats at all...


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Boab
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#9096
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#9096
(Original post by Midlander)
Just like the SNP saying that no currency union equals no taking on of national debt. No threats at all...


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No, that clearly was a threat. It is fairly obvious you know!
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MatureStudent36
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#9097
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#9097
(Original post by cBay)
all this crap about whether or not Scotland has a legal boundary (which it does) or whether it would be becoming fully independant (what does that even mean?), can somebody explain why Scotland should stay in the UK other than the UK's own selfish needs and greed?
The main reason is because the majority of us want to stay.
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#9098
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#9098
(Original post by Boab)
He was selling Scotland in Europe. To label it as threatening other countries is preposterous!
It is poor salesmanship, and he has scared the wellies off his own fishermen. It was clearly his attempt to negotiate strongly iScotland's position into the EU, trying to make it appear that the EU fishing fleet would be gagging to get iScotland on board or would regret losing out on fishing rights.

Unfortunately, he has misplayed his hand by implying iScotland could bar free passage to Norwegian waters (it couldn't) and by forgetting that Scottish fishermen (likely to be outside the EU at independence until let back in) wouldn't be able to fish in EU waters - and this is likely to be a net loss to iScotland.

At least he now realises he will have to negotiate to get into the EU, and has stopped claiming that entry would be automatic.
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FinalMH
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#9099
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#9099
(Original post by Boab)
And if you read the whole speech for yourself, you can see it is a speech embracing the EU.

Saying if Scotland wasn't in the EU, then the Common Fisheries Policy wouldn't apply to Scottish waters is no threat but obvious reality.

He was selling Scotland in Europe. To label it as threatening other countries is preposterous!
It was a threat but also a fact. Still I wonder how it will pan out, I personally believe if Scotland does vote for independence they will be in the EU.
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Midlander
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#9100
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#9100
(Original post by FinalMH)
It was a threat but also a fact. Still I wonder how it will pan out, I personally believe if Scotland does vote for independence they will be in the EU.
They will have to make some pretty big concessions but they should get in.


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