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    (Original post by Hantheman)
    That's my fear. Or more specifically, Man City (Tottenham will run out of steam). Liverpool have less money (and more problems) than they say they have.
    Can you expand a bit on this? I'm a Liverpool fan, I don't know how much money the club have nor do I know how much they say they have (they are famously very quiet about this), so I don't know how you can possibly draw such a conclusion?

    I'm very optimistic that Liverpool will improve next season. I also think City will improve. Not sure about Spurs or ManU. Long term I guess it depends who ManU get in after SAF and what happens with Abrahmovic, you guys are still well-placed financially though.

    Still, off the pitch only counts if you're in the boardroom, for fans I think ultimately it's what happens on the pitch that matters most.
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    (Original post by Hantheman)
    That's my fear. Or more specifically, Man City (Tottenham will run out of steam). Liverpool have less money (and more problems) than they say they have.
    :confused: Explain?
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    (Original post by M_E_X)
    I read this thread daily and carefully, and have done for a long time. It's certainly the most active society thread here on TSR and it's so interesting to me because of the many different opinions you guys have, all as fans of the same club. Compared to the LFC soc where we all have similar views on our manager, and our players (individually and as a whole), you guys are a huge spectrum of views - which makes good reading!

    I'll bring some stats about the debate you've been having on the last few pages:

    - Arsenal have the worst disciplinary record in the Premier League this season. (source: http://www.premierleague.com/page/St...,12306,00.html -> choose "Disciplinary table" from drop-down menu) Liverpool, ManU and Chelsea (three 'dirty' teams as cited above) are all within the top-10 best disciplinary records. This table only takes account of red and yellow cards (Arsenal have the most red cards in the Prem, 6, and and the third most yellow cards, 62). It doesn't take account of things like surrounding the ref or all the fouls that don't get spotted, but it does show that Arsenal aren't the "clean, bullied, victimised" team they are traditionally thought to be.

    - Vermarlan played three league games for you this season, you conceded goals in two of them. I don't think he would have a huge amount of difference over the season. Djourou, your 'breakthrough' defender this season is unlikely to have got a chance of Verm stayed fit. Last season, when he was fit almost all season, you guys still conceded 41 goals in the league - probably more than you'll concede this season. I know other factors have changed, you've gone to a new goalie and signed two new CBs this season, but it shows that he's not as big of a factor in your defence as some people here make him out to be.


    The question I always ask my friends who are Arsenal fans is "are you happy as you are, being the 'most sustainable' club in England but not winning trophies?". They always say yes -- I never believe them.
    Finally someone with some sense the general consensus here is that we would be certainties for the league if we had Vermaelen fit.Anyone who claims Arsenal are a targeted team for decisions and fouls is also completely deluded.
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    Either Wenger or the board needs to clarify the situation on the summer finances available, publicly!
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    I swear every new person to this thread comes in and says exactly the same thing about the team.

    Yesterday was a case of not being able to kill the game off rather than being 'lacklustre' defensively - we should have been 4-1 up by the time Cohen scored.

    Nasri was really off colour yesterday, so much so that I was expecting him to be taken off rather than Walcott, who had been once again terrorising that flank with his pace.
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    (Original post by ShadowConspiracy)
    What is with some deluded Arsenal fans?

    - If Cesc leaves (Which I think he will) and Wenger doesn't replace him then that team probably won't even qualify for CL next season.
    - Those calling for Wenger to be sacked are idiots, I don't think he should be sacked I believe they should move him up to the boardroom level.
    - Team needs to lose the deadwood EG. Bendtner,Clichy, Rosicky etc etc
    - RVP is a top striker, Far to injury prone, Say for examples sake he gets a broken leg at the start of the season, Then what? Who else is their who scores goals like him? Chamakh pffttt....
    - I read somewhere that 54% of Arsenals conceded goals this season have been from set plays.
    - We require a new GK, Don't get me wrong Schezny could become a top keeper but he requires another top keeper he can train with, New defender, Holding midfielder, and a new striker, Will we see these signings in the summer? I doubt it, Will Arsenal win anything next season if they don't sign? No.

    Those who say the squad lacks maturity, The ****, Seriously look how long that squad has had to mature. I love Arsenal but I hate Wenger's arrogance, You can still play sexy football without a teenage squad, Look at Barcelona for example?
    Absolutely 100% agree with this, Wenger's talent lies in scouting and player development I think he could succeed as a 'director of football'.
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    Additionally, there was an interesting interview early this morning on SSN (can't remember who with) that was on about getting rid of not just Pat Rice, but Boro Primorac as well, and promoting Steve Bould to first-team coach.

    Thoughts?
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    (Original post by doggyfizzel)
    I agree with this.

    I think you also have to consider what effect losing Cesc, would have. The departure of your best player and captain would be a big blow. He is a very influential player, him and RVP are gamewinners. Nasri is good, but his passing is not as good as Cesc's, and neither is his goalscoring ability.

    I don't think Arsenal will be winning the league next season although they may win the FA/Carling, the season after perhaps. But you want the progression to continue, if Cesc leaves you need to buy a replacement, not someone who will grow into a replacement, or the teams progression will fall back another 2-3 while his replacement grows in the player he is ( that is assuming you can find a potential replacement for one of the best young CM's in the world right away). Arsenal realistically have a 3 year window with this current team before RVP will need replacing. He wil be a hard player to replace. Along with him Sagna, Arshavin, Chamakh will all be finished or on their way out.

    Arsenal have a young team, but some key players are older than the rest of the squad, if Arsenal want a team which is going to win the league in coming season they need to accept Cesc or an equivalent is necessary, you will end up with the same situation you have now. Only with Walcott, Ramsay, and Wilshire and a load of youngsters lacking maturity.
    On yesterday's showing I would pay for Cesc's flight to Barcelona myself.

    On almost every other day I would gladly invite the man to my bed and pleasure him ruthlessly in homage.

    As with every other player I do not want him around the place, especially as captain, if his mind is elsewhere. He needs to commit at least for a defined period of time and not let his mind wander. As far as I'm concerned he owes our club a debt and he is yet to see it paid off. When he has, we can let him go without acrimony and at a decent fee.

    On that note, whenever he goes, we need to use the money to bring in replacements. ie. We would use the 40-50m (I assume we could fetch something like that) to bring in someone in the mould of Ozil, who I wish we'd acquired tbh and it would need to be an immediate and certain purchase.
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    (Original post by MoMatrix)
    Absolutely 100% agree with this, Wenger's talent lies in scouting and player development I think he could succeed as a 'director of football'.
    I guarantee that's what he becomes when he retires at Arsenal, whether in tandem with Gazidis at the Emirates or whether he returns to France remains to be seen.
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    (Original post by Deshi)
    :confused: Explain?
    To be more specific, the Dalglish revolution to needs big spending in the summer to get back in the top 4 and I don't think you've got the money to do it.
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    (Original post by marcusmerehay)
    Yesterday was a case of not being able to kill the game off rather than being 'lacklustre' defensively - we should have been 4-1 up by the time Cohen scored.
    Yes it was Bolton had 3 corners and scored from 2 of them. We had 9!
    The defence was to blame for both goals. Arsenal have always been shaky with set pieces and more than half of the goals we've conceded have been from them.

    Also agree that there was some poor finishing from Nasri but what's new? We always waste chances...
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    (Original post by Hantheman)
    To be more specific, the Dalglish revolution to needs big spending in the summer to get back in the top 4 and I don't think you've got the money to do it.
    That is correct Dalglish is a very good man manager but traditionally needs a ridiculous amount of money to compete which is why he deserted Blackburn.
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    (Original post by jit987)
    Either Wenger or the board needs to clarify the situation on the summer finances available, publicly!
    This.
    The boards wrong decisions are costing the club millions in lost income by signing awful commercial deals. I think this is starting to change though as we're going to the far-east for pre-season for the first time - the only reason is to increase publicity and therefore revenue.

    Fernando Llorente for £34million anyone?
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    I could, of course, be completely wrong about Liverpool's financial situation, although I did forget they just got a stonking sponsorship deal. So I probably am wrong
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    (Original post by RobbieC)
    Some very valid points in there, and it's tough - I do still think there are issues that should and could be addressed. However, I don't think some of them had become apparent until now.

    Your post also raises an important point. Arsene is accused of being stubborn and refusing to adapt and change it up... However, we've seen HUGE adjustments made in the past couple of seasons...

    Arsene has changed our system in the last couple of years. We went from playing a 442 with pacey wingers and 2 reserved CMs to a 433 451 that has greater flexibility and has yielded a better showing away from home I feel.

    We have seen a sincere approach to cup competitions, especially the Carling Cup where we fielded a strong team specifically in response to people saying there was a time and place to develop youth. Arsene has utterly done a 360 there, and to an extent it has worked out well.

    Those two changes are enormous, because like he said if someone can offer/suggest a good solid reason to make the adjustments he will do it. Unfortunately a lot of people talk about Arsene's failings with a lot of hindsight to hand.

    To go back to the points you made, Joe, we ultimately need the players to commit and to have the loyalty a lot of them often pretend to have and then bail like Adagrandmore and Flamoney. I don't want those players near this club.

    We need the stability and the reason I remain of optimistic outlook is because if we keep the group together they will grow into winners. We can't just pluck a 30m player out of the market and drop them in, because we'll not see a return from that kind of investment.

    We need to invest in attitude, and as I said before... if we're not cheating, we're not trying hard enough. Time to get nasty, Arsenal.
    Are the changes that enormous or great though? We switched from 4-4-2 a while ago now and the 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 are all fairly interchangeable and similar, we often change between the 3 multiple times in a game (or at least should do ), there's no massive change from what we've been doing really for about 4 years. I disagree about taking the cups more seriously, too. I'd say Wenger has taken the Carling cup more seriously this year, knowing it's the easiest, hoping to win it and thus get a lot of the stress about 6 years without trophy off his back. If there is a time and a place for developing the youth players, it is the Carling cup, I had no problem with that at all. By taking it more seriously he's tired out key players more when really there aren't sufficient squad players to fill in for the more important games and he's crushed the team's spirit as it's shown them they can't win the easiest thing out there.

    When talking about Arsene's failings with hindsight, I'm keen to stress that I was always pro Wenger up until a point before Christmas, I think the Spurs crumble was what tipped me over the edge though. I've agreed with a lot of what he's had to say and believed that the success would come with time. I still think it will come with time, but that's provided we also have more luck on our side and we can't rely on luck. If he looked at his failings and said 'I've tried this, it seemed to make sense at the time but things haven't worked out...' then moved on to rectify where things have gone wrong, I'd be ecstatic, I love the man and all he's done for us, but the more good/solid arguments he has that things aren't working the more stubborn he seems to become to actually implement the changes we need.

    I completely agree with the point about Ade/Flamini and needing the players the really care about the club. Dunno if you've got twitter at all and follow the players but when you see them on there joking about and pissing around just a matter of hours after a shocking result, it's so so disheartening. I couldn't agree more about needing to invest in attitude and about keeping the group together, but the chances are, Cesc will be on his way and he's not only the key member of this group, but just about the only one who is willing to do anything to win. We need more Cescs (just ones that wanna play for Arsenal not Barca) and if anything, I imagine we'll be going into next season with less.


    (Original post by Mc93)
    Haven't really followed this thread, so this might be a bit off topic, but these stats show a great deal:

    "Net transfer spend since '04 #Arsenal +£11.5m (in credit) #MUFC -£108.72m #CFC -£397.95m #MCFC -£435.2m #THFC -£239.6m"
    and
    "A stat for #arsenal fans. Before Wenger, you finished top four in 23 out of 92 seasons. Under him, it is 14 out of 14."

    People wanting Wenger out are delusional to say the least.
    If the aim of the club was to make money and to get into the top 4 we'd be delusional. The aim of the club should be to win. Given the club that Wenger has made us into, people should be grateful for all he's done, but to give him some sort of immunity until he takes us to a position whereby we're worse off than when he started is just ****ing ridiculous.
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    (Original post by RobbieC)
    On yesterday's showing I would pay for Cesc's flight to Barcelona myself.

    On almost every other day I would gladly invite the man to my bed and pleasure him ruthlessly in homage.

    As with every other player I do not want him around the place, especially as captain, if his mind is elsewhere. He needs to commit at least for a defined period of time and not let his mind wander. As far as I'm concerned he owes our club a debt and he is yet to see it paid off. When he has, we can let him go without acrimony and at a decent fee.

    On that note, whenever he goes, we need to use the money to bring in replacements. ie. We would use the 40-50m (I assume we could fetch something like that) to bring in someone in the mould of Ozil, who I wish we'd acquired tbh and it would need to be an immediate and certain purchase.
    It's criminal Real picked him up for £13m after that world cup showing.

    IMO Cesc shouldn't be captian, but I understand why he is.

    From his point of view I can see why he wants to leave. He was around during the invincibles era, and how many trophies has he won now. He can look at Barca, the players he grew up with, winning a CL, 3 league titles back to back, not many players would be satisfied knowing they missed out on that. I think the WC with spain just convinced him, he can play a role in that Barca midfield, and has ignited his wish for success.
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    (Original post by Mc93)
    This.
    The boards wrong decisions are costing the club millions in lost income by signing awful commercial deals. I think this is starting to change though as we're going to the far-east for pre-season for the first time - the only reason is to increase publicity and therefore revenue.

    Fernando Llorente for £34million anyone?
    Llorente will only go to Madrid/Barça, and he's not worth £34 million, the fee being thrown around is only that high because he's Basque and therefore priceless to Bilbao.

    Soldado would be a cheaper, better and more experienced option though Mads Junker is tearing up the Eredivisie (though he's 30) and I've already mentioned N'Doye.

    In addition to the players I posted the other day, I'd like to add Balasz Dzsudzsak (Hungarian winger at Ajax). He's f***ing quality.
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    Ozil only had a year left on his contract, £13mil's not bad when he could have run down the year and gone on a free.
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    (Original post by M_E_X)
    The question I always ask my friends who are Arsenal fans is "are you happy as you are, being the 'most sustainable' club in England but not winning trophies?". They always say yes -- I never believe them.
    That's skewing the question, we're happy with dining at the top table every year, always in the top Four, going well in the CL, good cup runs. Yes, we want that to be converted into cup and league wins, but that's not the be all and end all. At the end of the day, it's not hard work being an Arsenal fan. We see fantastic football every week, play against the best clubs in Europe and win the majority of our games.

    The frustration comes from seeing where we fall short and it being the same problem over and over again, with no sign of it being resolved. We don't demand trophies every year because we're not a spoilt fanbase, but we do want to see the club doing everything they can to be the best. As long as we can see the management doing what is necessary to move us forward and the players giving their all we're happy. As much as rival fans and the media want to paint us as a crisis club, we're not, we're a top club that just needs to assess the situation and make definite steps forward.
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    I'm not worried about Liverpool at all. Dalglish's honeymoon is almost up, at which point the nasty little troll will hopefully be retired - by serious illness - to his swamp.

    Disgusting character.

    Anyway, back to Arsenal... Someone made the counterpoint that Vermalen's absence wasn't keenly impacting on our season?

    If we had Vermaelen it not only provides us our best CB and aerial defender/threat from corners and freekicks, but it also offers cover at LB position with a genuine bruiser element. Essentially he is our Vidic, while Koscielny and Djourou are more in the Rio mould. We needed that no nonsense element in those games where Squillaci played.

    The point is, if Vermaelen had been around when Djourou got hurt, we'd have had a competent CB pairing in Verm/Kos to go through that key set of games. There would have been a great difference in not having to field Squillaci for serious, high-tempo games.
 
 
 
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