Doctor Who - Discussion Thread II Watch

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Lizzie232
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#9141
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#9141
I freaking love Dr Who, I still have a burning love for David Tennant that I don't think I'll ever quite get over though...
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laprenti
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#9142
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#9142
(Original post by Rascacielos)
...And I think she's established herself as someone who's quirky, brave, intelligent and funny. Isn't that deep enough for you? I'm sure other character traits will reveal themselves throughout the rest of the series, as we find out more about her. You have to remember that the idea is that we don't know much about her - that's where the mystery of who she is comes from.

I know the current writers haven't been writing for 50 years, but Doctor Who is more successful than ever now... And I think that says something.
It's not about deep, it's about realistic. 'quirky', as in eccentric? Not very well done and comes off as smartass-ish and forced ('souffles' and witty remarks), 'brave', I didn't get that, I only got 'curious to the point of being annoying', I like brave, but again it wasn't well done (that's not how bravery usually manifests in people) and didn't come off as genuine bravery, just idiocy. 'Intelligent', fine let's have another really clever companion, as if we haven't had enough covert clever people (Amy, Donna, Martha, Rose), while the doctor looks down his nose on people who can't figure things out (e.g. when Martha and misc. doctor are discussing how much air there'll be left, Doctor looks at 'unintelligent' person in disgust and says they'll drag them behind), well that kind of annoys me, there are different kinds of intelligence that don't involve noticing things and coming up with plans, and I'm tired of the whole 'I'm seemingly normal but I have very good insights into things and I'm actually really clever' act. It's also not done very well, can they not portray intelligence honestly? Funny...well, I don't find her one liners funny, just obnoxious, but this is personal preference of course. Where's the meat? Where's the heart of her? People are more than just a list of personality traits, they don't come together into a unified whole to create a character. Clara is a cardboard cutout of a character, and not a real one.

I doubt she'll blossom into anything more. She'll probably be as developed as Amy and Rory, and that's not very much at all.

You know what, twilight is very successful, doesn't mean it's any good.
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Svenjamin
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#9143
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#9143
(Original post by laprenti)
It's not about deep, it's about realistic. 'quirky', as in eccentric? Not very well done and comes off as smartass-ish and forced ('souffles' and witty remarks), 'brave', I didn't get that, I only got 'curious to the point of being annoying', I like brave, but again it wasn't well done (that's not how bravery usually manifests in people) and didn't come off as genuine bravery, just idiocy. 'Intelligent', fine let's have another really clever companion, as if we haven't had enough covert clever people (Amy, Donna, Martha, Rose), while the doctor looks down his nose on people who can't figure things out (e.g. when Martha and misc. doctor are discussing how much air there'll be left, Doctor looks at 'unintelligent' person in disgust and says they'll drag them behind), well that kind of annoys me, there are different kinds of intelligence that don't involve noticing things and coming up with plans, and I'm tired of the whole 'I'm seemingly normal but I have very good insights into things and I'm actually really clever' act. It's also not done very well, can they not portray intelligence honestly? Funny...well, I don't find her one liners funny, just obnoxious, but this is personal preference of course. Where's the meat? Where's the heart of her? People are more than just a list of personality traits, they don't come together into a unified whole to create a character. Clara is a cardboard cutout of a character, and not a real one.

I doubt she'll blossom into anything more. She'll probably be as developed as Amy and Rory, and that's not very much at all.

You know what, twilight is very successful, doesn't mean it's any good.
That is a general malaise of modern TV though. Most characters (especially in situational shows like Dr who and sitcoms) are a list of characteristics. Just easier to write episodes that way: present a situation, each character reacts in their cookie cutter way, conclude the episode. Then pepper with a few references and long running jokes.

Its a valid criticism of Dr Who but its also a valid criticism of Big Bang Theory, Misfits, How I Met Your Mother, Merlin, Dexter and countless other shows.
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TopHat
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#9144
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Your point is? Those are all also terrible shows. Dexter is perhaps the only exception on that list.
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Svenjamin
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#9145
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(Original post by TopHat)
Your point is? Those are all also terrible shows. Dexter is perhaps the only exception on that list.
My point is that one dimensional characters are an integral element of how the show is and has always been written, so why bring it up in the 6th season as if it's only true of Oswin? It's a light entertainment show, not a deep character piece.
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TopHat
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#9146
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(Original post by Svenjamin)
My point is that one dimensional characters are an integral element of how the show is and has always been written, so why bring it up in the 6th season as if it's only true of Oswin? It's a light entertainment show, not a deep character piece.
Because they're not an integral version of how the show is and always has been written. Sally Sparrow was not one dimensional, neither was her boyfriend. Donna was not one dimensional. Series 1 Rose was not one dimensional (dull, but not one dimensional). Adelaide from The Waters of Mars was not one dimensional.

All of these characters reacted to situations (for the most part) in a believable manner. I don't even like Series 1 Rose, I thought she was a rather dull person, but she still acted like a real person, just a person I wouldn't exactly spend much time with. I was capable of empathizing with her (I just didn't want to).

Amy and Clara are do not react to situations anything like normal people would. They're terribly written, and it's seriously damaging my enjoyment of the show. I actually really enjoyed Moffat's output and was looking forward to when he replaced Russell, my favourite episodes were The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Blink and Midnight, 3/4 of which are Moffat, but the show is currently dire, and most of that is the fact that for some time now, Amy and River, and now Clara, have been doing their damned hardest to shatter my suspension of disbelief.
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Politics Student
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#9147
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#9147
(Original post by Svenjamin)
My point is that one dimensional characters are an integral element of how the show is and has always been written, so why bring it up in the 6th season as if it's only true of Oswin? It's a light entertainment show, not a deep character piece.
I do agree with you.

I must also point out in the two episodes Oswin has been in she has:

1) Had to introduce her to the doctor which took a chunk of each story (I must point out after seeing it happen twice they have been different enough to not be boring but I am worried that the next time will be boring).
2) She died each time.

She really has not had much screen time to really show the character.

I am interested in seeing how they develop the character as long as they don't keep killing her off lol
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laprenti
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#9148
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#9148
(Original post by Svenjamin)
That is a general malaise of modern TV though. Most characters (especially in situational shows like Dr who and sitcoms) are a list of characteristics. Just easier to write episodes that way: present a situation, each character reacts in their cookie cutter way, conclude the episode. Then pepper with a few references and long running jokes.

Its a valid criticism of Dr Who but its also a valid criticism of Big Bang Theory, Misfits, How I Met Your Mother, Merlin, Dexter and countless other shows.
I'm not asking for The Wire, I'm asking for well written characters with real emotions, thoughts, feelings and reactions so that I can believe in them when I'm watching them. It's easier? Well Moffat obviously spends a lot of time thinking up convoluted puzzle plots, can he not spare the time to write proper characters too?

I beg to differ I think there have been some well written characters that weren't one dimensional over the years. Watching Doctor who these days feels like watching a bad fanfiction, that's how badly written some of the characters are. If I wanted to read fanfiction, I'd go and read fanfiction, but I want to watch Doctor who. That's all I ask for.
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rhw
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#9149
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#9149
(Original post by laprenti)
I'm not asking for The Wire, I'm asking for well written characters with real emotions, thoughts, feelings and reactions so that I can believe in them when I'm watching them. It's easier? Well Moffat obviously spends a lot of time thinking up convoluted puzzle plots, can he not spare the time to write proper characters too?

I beg to differ I think there have been some well written characters that weren't one dimensional over the years. Watching Doctor who these days feels like watching a bad fanfiction, that's how badly written some of the characters are. If I wanted to read fanfiction, I'd go and read fanfiction, but I want to watch Doctor who. That's all I ask for.
Completely agree, the pandorica opens is a perfect example of an episode which had a fan fiction feel to it, would elaborate but I've just found a massive spider in my room


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SirMasterKey
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#9150
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(Original post by rhw)
Completely agree, the pandorica opens is a perfect example of an episode which had a fan fiction feel to it, would elaborate but I've just found a massive spider in my room


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What an excuse. :p:


I know who Clara is. Blatently the female Rory with her dying and coming back to life all the time. :holmes:
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#9151
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#9151
(Original post by SirMasterKey)
What an excuse. :p:


I know who Clara is. Blatently the female Rory with her dying and coming back to life all the time. :holmes:
depends what sort of spider it is, certainly I wouldn't stop to talk if this was in my room:
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PoGo HoPz
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#9152
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#9152
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
depends what sort of spider it is, certainly I wouldn't stop to talk if this was in my room:
To be honest, even though I'm absolutely terrified of spiders of any shape and size, I wasn't even remotely scared of that one. Certainly not as terrified as I was of the huge spider in Lord of the Rings. :afraid:
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Supermassive_muse_fan
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#9153
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#9153
(Original post by laprenti)
I'm not asking for The Wire, I'm asking for well written characters with real emotions, thoughts, feelings and reactions so that I can believe in them when I'm watching them. .
Watch Fringe - it's the best sci-fi series I have ever seen.

Happy New year everyone
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rhw
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#9154
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Laughed at reading the replies

But yeah, The Pandorica Opens was on WATCH yesterday so y'know thought I'd watch it. Part where the Daleks, Cyberships, Sontaran battlefleets stopped moving because Doctor told them to it just wouldn't happen. At the end when it was mentioned they made an alliance, it just wouldn't happen, Daleks & Cybermen tried it before and:



It just seemed unnecessary to include all those different species, didn't work for me.
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paddyman4
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#9155
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I finally got round to watching it. There were bits that were great and then bits which were just beyond awful.

I liked the Sontaran - genuinely funny comic relief. I liked the cloud and I liked the evil looking snowmen. The Sherlock Holmes bit was funny and I liked the doctor's initial apathy.

I would have liked the villain to be more fleshed out. Some hint of redemption, some hint of doubt, some hint of his motivation. I think it would have been better if he had come to secretly hate the snow as he had gotten older, and if he had contributed to a resolution.

The end was beyond a deus ex machina. The only thing that could drown out the existing emotion in the snow is, of course, an entire family crying on Christmas Eve. I've gotten slightly tired of Moffat writing himself into a corner. It can be excused across an arc but not within an episode. Would have been far better if the villain had pulled the plug somehow.

The worst scene was the 'one word' scene. So ridiculous and pointless. If it wasn't bad enough to have the stupid 'answer with only one word' with no explanation of the point of it, Clara then somehow knows that 'pond' will get through to the Doctor. I'd bet that the entire subplot with the frozen pond came about because Moffat wanted a reason to put the word 'pond' in like that.

Overall, I think there were too many characters. The lizard woman and her wife were not needed, for example, and that time could have been spent making more of the villain.

I do like the Oswin riddle but have little faith it will be resolved adequately, as none of Moffat's other puzzles have been really.

Not sure how I feel about the Oswin character though. I liked Amy but I don't feel like we need an Amy clone - the only difference is that Oswin is also Sherlock Holmes. This might sound weird, but I think it's time for someone who is not so bipolar. Someone who doesn't lurch from prozac happy to crying all the time. Someone a bit calmer. It's weird as Donna is my favourite companion and is definitely not calm, but I want a change. (side note: out of all the episodes of companions embarking on their journey with the doctor, Donna's is my favourite).
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wizard710
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#9156
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(Original post by paddyman4)
I finally got round to watching it. There were bits that were great and then bits which were just beyond awful.

I liked the Sontaran - genuinely funny comic relief. I liked the cloud and I liked the evil looking snowmen. The Sherlock Holmes bit was funny and I liked the doctor's initial apathy.

I would have liked the villain to be more fleshed out. Some hint of redemption, some hint of doubt, some hint of his motivation. I think it would have been better if he had come to secretly hate the snow as he had gotten older, and if he had contributed to a resolution.

The end was beyond a deus ex machina. The only thing that could drown out the existing emotion in the snow is, of course, an entire family crying on Christmas Eve. I've gotten slightly tired of Moffat writing himself into a corner. It can be excused across an arc but not within an episode. Would have been far better if the villain had pulled the plug somehow.

The worst scene was the 'one word' scene. So ridiculous and pointless. If it wasn't bad enough to have the stupid 'answer with only one word' with no explanation of the point of it, Clara then somehow knows that 'pond' will get through to the Doctor. I'd bet that the entire subplot with the frozen pond came about because Moffat wanted a reason to put the word 'pond' in like that.

Overall, I think there were too many characters. The lizard woman and her wife were not needed, for example, and that time could have been spent making more of the villain.

I do like the Oswin riddle but have little faith it will be resolved adequately, as none of Moffat's other puzzles have been really.

Not sure how I feel about the Oswin character though. I liked Amy but I don't feel like we need an Amy clone - the only difference is that Oswin is also Sherlock Holmes. This might sound weird, but I think it's time for someone who is not so bipolar. Someone who doesn't lurch from prozac happy to crying all the time. Someone a bit calmer. It's weird as Donna is my favourite companion and is definitely not calm, but I want a change. (side note: out of all the episodes of companions embarking on their journey with the doctor, Donna's is my favourite).
I liked Donna. No sexual tension, just a bit of light hearted fun.

Sent from my phone, please excuse all tpyos
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paddyman4
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#9157
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(Original post by wizard710)
I liked Donna. No sexual tension, just a bit of light hearted fun.

Sent from my phone, please excuse all tpyos
Yeah I liked how when she joined the doctor, the writers made it abundantly clear that there would be no hint of romance. I thought they had learned at that point that people wanted no more romance.

I also think Donna was the best actress to be honest.

My problem with the romance now, beyond the fact that I find it annoying, is that Clara is very young. If Matt Smith regenerates before she goes, they won't be able to have a slightly older doctor as it'd look creepy.
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Integer
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#9158
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#9158
I watched 10 minutes of the Christmas episode, I got bored.
I just feel it's too childish for me to watch now..which is a shame.
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wizard710
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#9159
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#9159
(Original post by Integer)
I watched 10 minutes of the Christmas episode, I got bored.
I just feel it's too childish for me to watch now..which is a shame.
I can see why you feel that way :-)

Sent from my phone, please excuse all tpyos
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battycatlady
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#9160
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#9160
I liked the Christmas episode.

It wasn't the best plot ever, but as it was mainly focused on Oswin I think that can be forgiven. I really like Oswin so far and can't wait to see how that mystery unravels.

The only stupid bit was the whole 'pond' scene. How would she know? 0.o
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