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    (Original post by jam277)
    Khedira is not a DM and didn't really play much like one for Madrid he's a box to box midfielder.

    Kante is not a DM he's box to box just like Modric.

    What you really mean is that Real Madrid need to play with a deep lying player that's more defensively aware and physically capable than Kroos.
    Khedira is a DM, he has no attacking instinct, or talent, whatsoever. His best use is breaking play up and using his physicality to protect the defence.

    Kante is actually very good going forward, but he would not be used as a B2B because Modric does that job better than most players in the world. Kante is excellent at winning the 50-50's and hassling opposition midfielders; he averages 4.2 interceptions per game in the PL which is the highest out of any player and he averages 4.2 tackles per game which is the second-highest. He is a defensive midfielder that can move the game forward.

    So no, I do not mean a DLP that is more defensive, I mean a player than can break play up and protect the defence - hence a DM.
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    Madrid's most recent success has often coincided with when they had a good DM; Khedira in 11-12 and Makele in 01-03. Even with Xabi in 13-14 they often looked exposed.

    It's arrogant and foolish to think you can dominate the world without a DM.

    Of course I'm sure Ancelotti, Rafa and Zidane all wanted to buy a DM, but Perez will not allow it because DM's aren't often galacticos.
    Yes but Perez forced out Makelele and bought another attacker.
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    Khedira is a DM, he has no attacking instinct, or talent, whatsoever. His best use is breaking play up and using his physicality to protect the defence.

    Kante is actually very good going forward, but he would not be used as a B2B because Modric does that job better than most players in the world. Kante is excellent at winning the 50-50's and hassling opposition midfielders; he averages 4.2 interceptions per game in the PL which is the highest out of any player and he averages 4.2 tackles per game which is the second-highest. He is a defensive midfielder that can move the game forward.

    So no, I do not mean a DLP that is more defensive, I mean a player than can break play up and protect the defence - hence a DM.
    He is not an epitome of an anchor player like Mikel or Makelele are e.g. Plus Khedira and Lass were playing in 10/11 and Madrid only won the copa del rey so using Khedira is a poor example. He's a prime box to box midfielder who used to make runs forward in order to give space for Alonso to string passes from deep. He also played there in 12/13 and they won nothing.

    So you play a box to box midfielder like Kante at DM? Box to box midfielders get a lot of interceptions and tackles in so I don't see why you're using those stats. He is the prime definition of a box to box midfielder. Although I guess he gets himself about which is what Madrid needs(not sure if he is good enough for them but he's an example) The positioning is completely different and he plays in a 2 usually with Drinkwater so it's hard to tell if he can wean in a 3 man midfield with sole defensive responsibility as well as deep lying playmaking like Madrid require of Kroos.

    Busquetts is a Deep Lying Playmaker that is more defensive and Barcelona don't use a typical destroyer type DM a lot of the time yet their defence does well enough and they been winning a lot the past 7 or so years with him being a major factor towards that. Positioning and organised pressing are far more important attributes to a team than getting yourself about and being walking yellow cards with tackles(although the two are not mutually exclusive).

    I think you are misunderstanding that there are different types of no.6s. However a archetypical destroyer DM isn't exactly what Madrid needs. They need a player who has energy and can pass it about, but most importantly being defensively aware. There are ways to get past the DM issue, like Madrid did to an extent in 13/14(going 4-4-2 with Ronaldo behind Benzema while the midfield were mainly responsible defensively) and Barcelona basically have been doing for years. An organised defensive system of play and high levels of defensive awareness is more than enough.

    Atlético have been using two box to box midfielders in Tiago and Gabi for ages and it's worked for them too.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    He is not an epitome of an anchor player like Mikel or Makelele are e.g. Plus Khedira and Lass were playing in 10/11 and Madrid only won the copa del rey so using Khedira is a poor example. He's a prime box to box midfielder who used to make runs forward in order to give space for Alonso to string passes from deep. He also played there in 12/13 and they won nothing.

    So you play a box to box midfielder like Kante at DM? Box to box midfielders get a lot of interceptions and tackles in so I don't see why you're using those stats. He is the prime definition of a box to box midfielder. Although I guess he gets himself about which is what Madrid needs(not sure if he is good enough for them but he's an example) The positioning is completely different and he plays in a 2 usually with Drinkwater so it's hard to tell if he can wean in a 3 man midfield with sole defensive responsibility as well as deep lying playmaking like Madrid require of Kroos.

    Busquetts is a Deep Lying Playmaker that is more defensive and Barcelona don't use a typical destroyer type DM a lot of the time yet their defence does well enough and they been winning a lot the past 7 or so years with him being a major factor towards that. Positioning and organised pressing are far more important attributes to a team than getting yourself about and being walking yellow cards with tackles(although the two are not mutually exclusive).

    I think you are misunderstanding that there are different types of no.6s. However a archetypical destroyer DM isn't exactly what Madrid needs. They need a player who has energy and can pass it about, but most importantly being defensively aware. There are ways to get past the DM issue, like Madrid did to an extent in 13/14(going 4-4-2 with Ronaldo behind Benzema while the midfield were mainly responsible defensively) and Barcelona basically have been doing for years. An organised defensive system of play and high levels of defensive awareness is more than enough.

    Atlético have been using two box to box midfielders in Tiago and Gabi for ages and it's worked for them too.
    We seem to have very different definitions of DM and B2B. This is how I define it:

    1) Anchor DM - Disciplined in attack and defence. Waits for opposition to come into a certain area and then closes the player down.

    2) General DM - Disciplined in attack, but not in defence. The player does not join in with attacks often in the same way Gerrard or Lampard did, although may occasionally move forward, and act as a decoy, to provide space for DLP (like Khedira did for Xabi). The main role is to win the ball back as quickly as possible, potentially high up the field, in order to keep possession.

    3) B2B - Disciplined in neither, so like a young Gerrard or Lampard. They will track back and hound midfielders but it is not their sole responsibility to win the ball and protect the defence, and they are expected to join in attacks and lurk at the edge of the box. Typically B2B will have many more goals and assists than a general DM. Of course a B2B can win the ball back high up the field, but after a lung-busting run to get to edge of the box they may not be in the position, literally or physically, to do so.

    Madrid require the 2nd option. This is because they don't sit back and absorb (only against Barca) so a holding DM wouldn't be very useful, but they need a player that can win the ball back in the opponents half/around the halfway line and prevent counter attacks, which directly provides cover for the defence. They already have a world-class B2B in Modric, they don't need another.

    To return to your point about a defensive playmaker; it would work but it is not necessary. A DLP would be very similar to an anchor DM in defensive duties. I've already explained why they don't need that.

    Modric can take up DLP duties when they have the ball in their own half (in other words he can spray a ball out to the wing). Plus Ramos can help out with this too.

    To conclude: There would be no need for Kroos if they had Modric and a general DM - they would be much more dynamic in the middle, be less exposed to counter attacks and not suffer hugely from the DLP duties as Modric can take over when required (the ball in their own half or if they want to maintain a lead).
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    We seem to have very different definitions of DM and B2B. This is how I define it:

    1) Anchor DM - Disciplined in attack and defence. Waits for opposition to come into a certain area and then closes the player down.

    2) General DM - Disciplined in attack, but not in defence. The player does not join in with attacks often in the same way Gerrard or Lampard did, although may occasionally move forward, and act as a decoy, to provide space for DLP (like Khedira did for Xabi). The main role is to win the ball back as quickly as possible, potentially high up the field, in order to keep possession.

    3) B2B - Disciplined in neither, so like a young Gerrard or Lampard. They will track back and hound midfielders but it is not their sole responsibility to win the ball and protect the defence, and they are expected to join in attacks and lurk at the edge of the box. Typically B2B will have many more goals and assists than a general DM. Of course a B2B can win the ball back high up the field, but after a lung-busting run to get to edge of the box they may not be in the position, literally or physically, to do so.

    Madrid require the 2nd option. This is because they don't sit back and absorb (only against Barca) so a holding DM wouldn't be very useful, but they need a player that can win the ball back in the opponents half/around the halfway line and prevent counter attacks, which directly provides cover for the defence. They already have a world-class B2B in Modric, they don't need another.

    To return to your point about a defensive playmaker; it would work but it is not necessary. A DLP would be very similar to an anchor DM in defensive duties. I've already explained why they don't need that.

    Modric can take up DLP duties when they have the ball in their own half (in other words he can spray a ball out to the wing). Plus Ramos can help out with this too.

    To conclude: There would be no need for Kroos if they had Modric and a general DM - they would be much more dynamic in the middle, be less exposed to counter attacks and not suffer hugely from the DLP duties as Modric can take over when required (the ball in their own half or if they want to maintain a lead).
    From wikipedia:
    Box to box midfielder: The term box-to-box midfielder refers to central midfielders who have good mobility and are skilled at both defending and attacking.[5]These players can therefore track back to their own house to make tackles and block shots and also run to the opponents' box to try to score.[6] A good box-to-box midfielder needs good passing, vision, stamina, tackling and marking in defence, and shooting and dribbling in attack.

    Khedira therefore falls into the category because he has a good mid range shot, good defensively and has great stamina and good tackling ability.

    http://afootballreport.com/post/3506...ele-an-insight
    For DM there are 3 main types imo in a spectrum (some may fall into sub categories and obviously midfield roles can change over time and mid match).

    1. The Regista(sole deep lying playmaker who's main function is creative, relies more so on interceptions than tackling) Pirlo/Alonso.
    2. The Destroyer(Main function is to break down play and lay it off to other more creative players) Mascherano at Liverpool being a good example. Mascherano has now evolved his passing to potentially fulfil the volante role.
    3. The Volante(break down play, creates play) Busquetts being the best example.

    For me, Busquetts is a volante, essentially a defensively able deep lying playmaker. Madrid could do with a shield, however if you can get the shield along with ball playing ability, surely that is much better than just having a sole destroying DM.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    From wikipedia:
    Box to box midfielder: The term box-to-box midfielder refers to central midfielders who have good mobility and are skilled at both defending and attacking.[5]These players can therefore track back to their own house to make tackles and block shots and also run to the opponents' box to try to score.[6] A good box-to-box midfielder needs good passing, vision, stamina, tackling and marking in defence, and shooting and dribbling in attack.

    Khedira therefore falls into the category because he has a good mid range shot, good defensively and has great stamina and good tackling ability.

    http://afootballreport.com/post/3506...ele-an-insight
    For DM there are 3 main types imo in a spectrum (some may fall into sub categories and obviously midfield roles can change over time and mid match).

    1. The Regista(sole deep lying playmaker who's main function is creative, relies more so on interceptions than tackling) Pirlo/Alonso.
    2. The Destroyer(Main function is to break down play and lay it off to other more creative players) Mascherano at Liverpool being a good example. Mascherano has now evolved his passing to potentially fulfil the volante role.
    3. The Volante(break down play, creates play) Busquetts being the best example.

    For me, Busquetts is a volante, essentially a defensively able deep lying playmaker. Madrid could do with a shield, however if you can get the shield along with ball playing ability, surely that is much better than just having a sole destroying DM.
    I still do not classify Khedira as a B2B because he has no offensive ability, where is this good mid range shot? I've not seen it. He is a general DM (using my scale) that acted as a decoy going forward to create space for Xabi, nothing more, nothing less. Young Gerrard and Lampard are B2B's - they scored and set up plenty.

    Your scale is not enough, we need to specify how disciplined they are in attack and defence. A destroyer could just sit in front of the CB's and not move, or he could close down players in the opposition half. They are very different roles; a player of one type could not necessarily do the other.

    It is actually rather simple, Madrid need somebody who's main purpose is to tackle and stop opposition counter attacks, but they need to be mobile and very athletic as Madrid do not sit back and absorb. If they can play the ball that's better. So surely Kante (who would take a restricted role going forward) is the perfect player?
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    One helluva first half performance from Valencia starlet Santi Mina; grabbing 2 goals and 3 assists.
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    (Original post by The Wavefunction)
    One helluva first half performance from Valencia starlet Santi Mina; grabbing 2 goals and 3 assists.
    Rapid Vienna are quite poor and Valencia are usually good in Europe. There league position could mean that the Europa League is the best option for them to play European football next season.
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    I still do not classify Khedira as a B2B because he has no offensive ability, where is this good mid range shot? I've not seen it. He is a general DM (using my scale) that acted as a decoy going forward to create space for Xabi, nothing more, nothing less. Young Gerrard and Lampard are B2B's - they scored and set up plenty.

    Your scale is not enough, we need to specify how disciplined they are in attack and defence. A destroyer could just sit in front of the CB's and not move, or he could close down players in the opposition half. They are very different roles; a player of one type could not necessarily do the other.

    It is actually rather simple, Madrid need somebody who's main purpose is to tackle and stop opposition counter attacks, but they need to be mobile and very athletic as Madrid do not sit back and absorb. If they can play the ball that's better. So surely Kante (who would take a restricted role going forward) is the perfect player?
    He's got a good midrange shot. But the fact he goes forward often means he's not a general DM. There are not just one type of box to box midfielders either. The main attribute of a box to box midfielder is that they contribute to defence and attacking. That's not a general DM. Vidal i'd argue is a completely different type of box to box midfielder than Lampard. Marchisio is a different type of box to box midfielder to Essien(who is the most similar comparison of box to box midfielder to Khedira).

    There is a range if you read the article. You have holding midfielders who are a bit more focused on playing the ball and you have destroyer DMs(not the kinda things us lot slide into on insta ) who are more focused on defensive duties. In no way is Khedira(well the Khedira at Madrid) considered as a holding midfielder, or as a DM. He's a poor excuse for one if he is considered to be a DM.

    Think we're agreeing with each other with the kind of player Madrid need, although not sure if Kante is good enough to fulfil that role. You don't need to tackle loads though to be an effective DM. Positioning is just as important.
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    2) General DM - Disciplined in attack, but not in defence. The player does not join in with attacks often in the same way Gerrard or Lampard did, although may occasionally move forward, and act as a decoy, to provide space for DLP (like Khedira did for Xabi). The main role is to win the ball back as quickly as possible, potentially high up the field, in order to keep possession.

    3) B2B - Disciplined in neither, so like a young Gerrard or Lampard. They will track back and hound midfielders but it is not their sole responsibility to win the ball and protect the defence, and they are expected to join in attacks and lurk at the edge of the box. Typically B2B will have many more goals and assists than a general DM. Of course a B2B can win the ball back high up the field, but after a lung-busting run to get to edge of the box they may not be in the position, literally or physically, to do so.
    (Original post by Manchester United)
    Khedira is a DM, he has no attacking instinct, or talent, whatsoever. His best use is breaking play up and using his physicality to protect the defence. [...]So no, I do not mean a DLP that is more defensive, I mean a player than can break play up and protect the defence - hence a DM.
    The problem is not your different take on role definitions, but your assessment of what Khedira actually does. How does he lack "attacking instinct"? Khedira used to run forward & try to get involved in or at the end of attacks on almost every possible occasion. If that's not instinctive then I don't know what it is, because it certainly wasn't tactical, "disciplined" or role-related - his runs were often unneccessary, too eager and sometimes even counter-productive in the sense that it caused Alonso to work more than he should have, rather than just giving him the required space like you suggested. He was brought in to ease the burden on more and more declining Alonso, but his attacking tendency didn't result in that. As jam said, his runs forward are much more frequent and individual than would be typical for the type of player role you describe. (Now I guess you could mean "attacking instinct" as in an instinctive knowledge when to do the right thing in attack, but even then, Khedira's runs are too often too good for a player of his mould and position to say he has no instinct "whatsoever".) The reason his numbers in goals and assists weren't anything noteworthy isn't because he doesn't naturally join in attacks frequently or has no attacking instinct, but because he simply has a *****y technique and end product.

    Now if you say the role of a general DM is "to win the ball back as quickly as possible" - did Khedira really do that to such an extent that you'd qualify him as the general DM? Khedira was nowhere near Real's top performers in terms of ball recovery; Alonso and several others consistently did much more than him in that regard. That may not take away much from your point, but Khedira's contribution in that regard is overrated if you think it so vital that it would qualify him as that player type with that as his main task.

    As for the general point about Khedira's contribution in 2012: Xabi's and Khedira's partnership was often imbalanced, with Khedira going forward too much and Xabi not moving enough, both factors naturally aggravating each other. Khedira in 2012 didn't have an incredible season at all and the notion that he was somehow a key factor in them winning the league is far-fetched.

    That, however, does not mean that I disagree about Kroos. Back when he was bought I said that his signing didn't make sense unless Real opted against selling AdM and got a replacement for Xabi. And even then, he still wouldn't be the perfect fit for their style unless they were going to plan a slower, more possession-based style (which may have been the original plan of Ancelotti).

    (On a final, general note, not directed at you: Too much repeated name-butchering in this thread. Busquets has one T and Makélélé 1 A and 3 Es).
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    (Original post by Vae)
    The problem is not your different take on role definitions, but your assessment of what Khedira actually does. How does he lack "attacking instinct"? Khedira used to run forward & try to get involved in or at the end of attacks on almost every possible occasion. If that's not instinctive then I don't know what it is, because it certainly wasn't tactical, "disciplined" or role-related - his runs were often unneccessary, too eager and sometimes even counter-productive in the sense that it caused Alonso to work more than he should have, rather than just giving him the required space like you suggested. He was brought in to ease the burden on more and more declining Alonso, but his attacking tendency didn't result in that. As jam said, his runs forward are much more frequent and individual than would be typical for the type of player role you describe. (Now I guess you could mean "attacking instinct" as in an instinctive knowledge when to do the right thing in attack, but even then, Khedira's runs are too often too good for a player of his mould and position to say he has no instinct "whatsoever".) The reason his numbers in goals and assists weren't anything noteworthy isn't because he doesn't naturally join in attacks frequently or has no attacking instinct, but because he simply has a *****y technique and end product.

    Now if you say the role of a general DM is "to win the ball back as quickly as possible" - did Khedira really do that to such an extent that you'd qualify him as the general DM? Khedira was nowhere near Real's top performers in terms of ball recovery; Alonso and several others consistently did much more than him in that regard. That may not take away much from your point, but Khedira's contribution in that regard is overrated if you think it so vital that it would qualify him as that player type with that as his main task.

    As for the general point about Khedira's contribution in 2012: Xabi's and Khedira's partnership was often imbalanced, with Khedira going forward too much and Xabi not moving enough, both factors naturally aggravating each other. Khedira in 2012 didn't have an incredible season at all and the notion that he was somehow a key factor in them winning the league is far-fetched.

    That, however, does not mean that I disagree about Kroos. Back when he was bought I said that his signing didn't make sense unless Real opted against selling AdM and got a replacement for Xabi. And even then, he still wouldn't be the perfect fit for their style unless they were going to plan a slower, more possession-based style (which may have been the original plan of Ancelotti).

    (On a final, general note, not directed at you: Too much repeated name-butchering in this thread. Busquets has one T and Makélélé 1 A and 3 Es).
    you're great reading
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    (Original post by jam277)
    You don't need to tackle loads though to be an effective DM. Positioning is just as important.
    Maybe like 100 times more important
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    If ever a dbi was required


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
    you're great reading
    she doesn't want you pal
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    (Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
    Maybe like 100 times more important
    True, Maldini's statistically was pretty low in tackling stats because he was always OP in positioning and anticipation.

    Xabi Alonso said that tackling(for a midfielder) is often utilised as a last resort for him.
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    (Original post by Manchester United)
    Yes, we know that. But in every midfield you need a DM, somebody that will hold, intercept and make tackles to provide cover for the defence. Real are one of the only top teams in the world that don't have one; they rely on Modric and Kroos to provide adequate cover, which is why they always look exposed when they don't have the ball. Kroos simply cannot be relied on to get around the pitch, his only quality is passing and Modric is almost as good at that tbf.

    I think they should drop Kroos, buy a DM (imagine Kante) and play Modric-DM-Isco. It would make for a much more balanced side.
    If you ask me, it was Madrid's own fault. They have had a good DM player in the squad, namely Khedira. Okay, I have to admit that he is injury-prone, but if he is in a good condition, he is very good in playing on his position.
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    (Original post by Vae)
    The problem is not your different take on role definitions, but your assessment of what Khedira actually does. How does he lack "attacking instinct"? Khedira used to run forward & try to get involved in or at the end of attacks on almost every possible occasion. If that's not instinctive then I don't know what it is, because it certainly wasn't tactical, "disciplined" or role-related - his runs were often unneccessary, too eager and sometimes even counter-productive in the sense that it caused Alonso to work more than he should have, rather than just giving him the required space like you suggested. He was brought in to ease the burden on more and more declining Alonso, but his attacking tendency didn't result in that. As jam said, his runs forward are much more frequent and individual than would be typical for the type of player role you describe. (Now I guess you could mean "attacking instinct" as in an instinctive knowledge when to do the right thing in attack, but even then, Khedira's runs are too often too good for a player of his mould and position to say he has no instinct "whatsoever".) The reason his numbers in goals and assists weren't anything noteworthy isn't because he doesn't naturally join in attacks frequently or has no attacking instinct, but because he simply has a *****y technique and end product.
    Anybody can make runs forward, and sometimes you might get lucky and end up on the end of something. But overall he had very little attacking instinct; he did not know when to hold and when to run forward. As for his attacking talent, he can't dribble, pass or shoot, so the only purpose in him advancing forward was to act as a decoy to create space for Xabi.

    I'm confused by your response, I'm not sure whether you agree with that or not, as there appears to be some contradiction.

    (Original post by Vae)
    Now if you say the role of a general DM is "to win the ball back as quickly as possible" - did Khedira really do that to such an extent that you'd qualify him as the general DM? Khedira was nowhere near Real's top performers in terms of ball recovery; Alonso and several others consistently did much more than him in that regard. That may not take away much from your point, but Khedira's contribution in that regard is overrated if you think it so vital that it would qualify him as that player type with that as his main task.

    As for the general point about Khedira's contribution in 2012: Xabi's and Khedira's partnership was often imbalanced, with Khedira going forward too much and Xabi not moving enough, both factors naturally aggravating each other. Khedira in 2012 didn't have an incredible season at all and the notion that he was somehow a key factor in them winning the league is far-fetched.
    You're definitely right in this regard, I overrated Khedira's defensive duties; especially compared to the performance of Kroos last year:

    (Khedira 2011/12) https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/52/Archive?stageId=5577
    (Kroos 2014/15) https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/52/A...?stageId=11363

    They clearly miss Xabi's defensive duties, but even then, as you say he wasn't the most mobile so they still had problems.

    (Original post by Vae)
    That, however, does not mean that I disagree about Kroos. Back when he was bought I said that his signing didn't make sense unless Real opted against selling AdM and got a replacement for Xabi. And even then, he still wouldn't be the perfect fit for their style unless they were going to plan a slower, more possession-based style (which may have been the original plan of Ancelotti).
    Yeah with Ronaldo and Bale I don't think a possession style works, it's about exploiting spaces between the defenders and getting in behind them. Therefore I don't think Kroos offers much; Modric can do the job of spraying the ball out wide, plus he is a world-class B2B.

    (Original post by Vae)
    (On a final, general note, not directed at you: Too much repeated name-butchering in this thread. Busquets has one T and Makélélé 1 A and 3 Es).
    To be honest I wouldn't worry about the lack of accented e's, but if you can't spell Busquetts right then that's scandalous.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Busquetts was on purpose, sorry
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    (Original post by jam277)
    True, Maldini's statistically was pretty low in tackling stats because he was always OP in positioning and anticipation.

    Xabi Alonso said that tackling(for a midfielder) is often utilised as a last resort for him.
    I think that is very true for a holding DM (and a CB) as they are essentially reading the game and therefore positioning is vital; that's why Busquets is GOAT. But for a general DM (my scale ), where they are unrestricted in defence, I think tackles and interceptions are very important as it is often more frantic and there is more closing down and reacting to loose balls, 50-50's and swift counter attacks.
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    Barca could extend their points advantage to 9 today.
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    Late but Suarez and Messi in that Gijon game, breathtaking.
 
 
 
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