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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Or perhaps they could piss off to their own country and shape it into the Islamic heaven they want it to be instead of constantly blowing up everything including their fellow citizens… :dontknow:
    Again a small minority, again you are punishing everyone for the deeds of a few.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Again a small minority, again you are punishing everyone for the deeds of a few.
    That is justified by the same principle as e.g. thorough airport checks that punish all travellers because they have to be put through significant discomfort to protect the rest of the world from Islam. The people can choose to reject Islam as their religion stay, so they have an option, but Islam itself and its supporters need to piss off.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    That is justified by the same principle as e.g. thorough airport checks that punish all travellers because they have to be put through significant discomfort to protect the rest of the world from Islam. The people can choose to reject Islam as their religion stay, so they have an option, but Islam itself and its supporters need to piss off.
    an idea doesn't blow up planes, people do. And Muslims aren't the only people who blow up planes.
    And that quite frankly is just as bad as the people you are claiming to oppose.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    an idea doesn't blow up planes, people do. And Muslims aren't the only people who blow up planes.
    And that quite frankly is just as bad as the people you are claiming to oppose.
    Really? Then I guess it's cool to start a neo-Nazi organisation which is to be ignored by the state until it's too late even if several of its members occasionally beat up some immigrants or Jews, correct? You are quite the thinker, Aph.
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    Wow! ICM just gave the Tories a 16% lead.

    @ICMResearch:
    @Conservatives 43%
    @UKLabour 27%
    @LibDems 8%
    @UKIP 13%
    @theSNP 4%
    @TheGreenParty 4%
    @Plaid_Cymru 1%
    http://bit.ly/1SWVx9H

    Election! Election! Election!
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Still only 0.006%, still 90% of so called 'terrorist' attacks are on Muslims, still innocent until proven guilty, still making people feel disenfranchised in the Comunity thus making the problem worse.

    We need a system which values everyone and makes them all feel enfranchised (I.e. Socialism) to combat extremism to help make people feel a part of the community and not apart from the community.
    To be fair though, some Muslims don't want to be part of communities in Western countries, but seek to actively isolate themselves, with reports of imams telling people not to vote and with a rise in Sharia courts just some of the examples of how they do so. How do you solve that disenfranchisement by Muslims who want to isolate themselves? Socialism isn't the answer to that question I'm afraid. In addition, I assume Socialism would take a laissez-faire attitude to Sharia courts for example, allowing them to continue to exist and thus for Muslims to continue to isolate themselves.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Really? Then I guess it's cool to start a neo-Nazi organisation which is to be ignored by the state until it's too late even if several of its members occasionally beat up some immigrants or Jews, correct? You are quite the thinker, Aph.
    You don't seem to realise that you are advocating thought police and forced religious conversions. Actions should be punished but thoughts and ideas should be debunked.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Or perhaps they could piss off to their own country and shape it into the Islamic heaven they want it to be instead of constantly blowing up everything including their fellow citizens… :dontknow:
    And if they are born, native British/French/German/ect citizens?
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    To be fair though, some Muslims don't want to be part of communities in Western countries, but seek to actively isolate themselves, with reports of imams telling people not to vote and with a rise in Sharia courts just some of the examples of how they do so. How do you solve that disenfranchisement by Muslims who want to isolate themselves? Socialism isn't the answer to that question I'm afraid. In addition, I assume Socialism would take a laissez-faire attitude to Sharia courts for example, allowing them to continue to exist and thus for Muslims to continue to isolate themselves.
    And how much of that is down to us and our behaviour. I fully admit that some Muslims are insular, but so are many people!!! Sharia courts should be free to exist as long as they exist within the law and all parties agree to them. I see them more as a mediation service. If they step outside the law the law definitely superceeds them.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    You don't seem to realise that you are advocating thought police and forced religious conversions. Actions should be punished but thoughts and ideas should be debunked.
    You don't seem to be addressing my arguments.

    It's as simple as: “If you want to live in Europe, come without Islam; if you're not willing to do that, don't come at all.”

    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    And if they are born, native British/French/German/ect citizens?
    Then thanks for making it a bit harder, dear Tony Blair.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    Then thanks for making it a bit harder, dear Tony Blair.
    You do know immigration began before 1997?
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    You don't seem to be addressing my arguments.

    It's as simple as: “If you want to live in Europe, come without Islam; if you're not willing to do that, don't come at all.”
    Do you not understand what you are saying?! Can you not see how you are suggesting a thought police and I don't even know how you I tend to enforce it!!!
    All you are doing is making the 'Islam vs The west' seem real to more Muslims and making the problem far, far worse.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    And how much of that is down to us and our behaviour. I fully admit that some Muslims are insular, but so are many people!!! Sharia courts should be free to exist as long as they exist within the law and all parties agree to them. I see them more as a mediation service. If they step outside the law the law definitely superceeds them.
    Absolutely not - everyone should be equal under the eyes of the law. The moment you allow Sharia courts, you allow people to move beyond that premise, creating an us and them society. Sharia courts should be shut down on that basis to ensure that everyone is dealt with under the same body of law.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    You do know immigration began before 1997?
    I do, however the numbers were manageable and as far as I know, the people didn't hate the UK and were willing to accept the local culture. If I'm wrong, feel free to educate me. I'm not pretending to be a ‘migration historian’ but I know there were few problems before mass immigration under Blair has begun.

    (Original post by Aph)
    Do you not understand what you are saying?! Can you not see how you are suggesting a thought police and I don't even know how you I tend to enforce it!!!All you are doing is making the 'Islam vs The west' seem real to more Muslims and making the problem far, far worse.
    You're again ignoring what I said. I almost forgot how pointless it is to ‘debate’ with you.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Absolutely not - everyone should be equal under the eyes of the law. The moment you allow Sharia courts, you allow people to move beyond that premise, creating an us and them society. Sharia courts should be shut down on that basis to ensure that everyone is dealt with under the same body of law.
    But they are considered the same. If the court goes beyond the law then it's shut down. If it acts within the law then all it is doing is mediation in which case there is no need to close it down. They are effectively like TV Judge shows, they hold no legal power and are really just mediation. Or should they be closed too?
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    I do, however the numbers were manageable and as far as I know, the people didn't hate the UK and were willing to accept the local culture. If I'm wrong, feel free to educate me. I'm not pretending to be a ‘migration historian’ but I know there were few problems before mass immigration under Blair has begun.



    You're again ignoring what I said. I almost forgot how pointless it is to ‘debate’ with you.
    I'm not ignoring you. I'm pointing out the flaw in your attitude which you aren't accepting.
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    (Original post by Life_peer)
    I do, however the numbers were manageable and as far as I know, the people didn't hate the UK and were willing to accept the local culture. If I'm wrong, feel free to educate me. I'm not pretending to be a ‘migration historian’ but I know there were few problems before mass immigration under Blair has begun.
    Well some historians believe it was mass immigration, most notably Enoch Powell's speech against it, the rivers of blood speech, which swung the election to the tories in 1970, an election where at times Labour enjoyed a 15 point lead, and the country certainly has had immigration issues in the past after mass commonwealth immigration which was at first accepted but then became hostile when there were less jobs.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    But they are considered the same. If the court goes beyond the law then it's shut down. If it acts within the law then all it is doing is mediation in which case there is no need to close it down. They are effectively like TV Judge shows, they hold no legal power and are really just mediation. Or should they be closed too?
    No they're not the same - many Muslims, through fear or choice, forego UK law to get judgements under Sharia courts and that is wrong. They are not like TV judge shows at all - TV judge shows are entertainment, whereas Sharia courts are far more dangerous including, for example, trying to force domestic abuse victims to stay with their husbands.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    No they're not the same - many Muslims, through fear or choice, forego UK law to get judgements under Sharia courts and that is wrong. They are not like TV judge shows at all - TV judge shows are entertainment, whereas Sharia courts are far more dangerous including, for example, trying to force domestic abuse victims to stay with their husbands.
    I point you to a previous comment, stating that it's fine if partisipents are willing.
    As for domestic abuse, that used to be the case with Christianity too you know. You need to give the religion time to evolve away. There are already certain sects much more westernised and liberal than others.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Well some historians believe it was mass immigration, most notably Enoch Powell's speech against it, the rivers of blood speech, which swung the election to the tories in 1970, an election where at times Labour enjoyed a 15 point lead, and the country certainly has had immigration issues in the past after mass commonwealth immigration which was at first accepted but then became hostile when there were less jobs.
    Fair enough, it looks like I should do some research then. Perhaps it's a tax for colonising half the world but I think that at least what came during and after Blair was unwarranted and should be returned.
 
 
 
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