Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Choo.choo
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#9481
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#9481
(Original post by Midlander)
The manufacturing sector is reporting a profit for the first time in God knows how long and unemployment is going further down. Looks like those evil Tories have actually done a half decent job.

If you'd have told me in 2010 that manufacturing would once more be profitable and that £60m was going to be put into Coventry's industrial sector, I'd have laughed it off. But both have happened, courtesy of Westminster.


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A round of applause, not. You really are very keen about independence. Are you getting paid to defend the union on here? You are never away from the site. Your post history shows nearly 120 pages of posts on this thread.
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Midlander
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#9482
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#9482
(Original post by Choo.choo)
A round of applause, not. You really are very keen about independence. Are you getting paid to defend the union on here? You are never away from the site. Your post history shows nearly 120 pages of posts on this thread.
I do post elsewhere on TSR on topics totally unrelated to this one.

Does restoring pride to manufacturing not count as praiseworthy in your book?


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FinalMH
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#9483
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#9483
(Original post by Choo.choo)
I don't accept that. Westminster never do a good job of anything, except serve the rich - and themselves.
Troll. Increasing the threshold for income tax was 100% severing the rich. :rolleyes:
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Midlander
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(Original post by FinalMH)
Troll. Increasing the threshold for income tax was 100% severing the rich.
Lest we forget introducing the minimum wage. Another savage attack by Westminster on the poor.


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Boab
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#9485
Sex, greed, over-centralised politics, and London-centricity – they all play their part in the alienation from Westminster politics that many of us are finding within and beyond the M25.
Were it confined to a turning to populists like Boris Johnson, and Nigel Farage, it might not matter so much. Even the piling up of opinion poll scores for Ukip might not matter so much. But this infection of despair, even hatred of Westminster politics, is most evident and focussed in Scotland. Scotland, where our own Channel 4 News poll finds only 14 per cent of people who regard themselves as British first, and Scottish second.
Having just spent a week in first the Western Isles, and second in Glasgow, hatred of Westminster is by far the most dominant factor in people who told me they were voting yes to Scottish independence. The theme was constantly repeated to me. For some, voting Yes is a long deep seated desire for an independent Scotland. But for far more it seems to be a relatively recent desire to have nothing to do with what so many spoke of as “the sleaze, dishonesty, and self-serving London-centric politics of Westminster”.

I have come away from Scotland deeply impressed by the high quality of debate, and the relatively low quality of many of the arguments put forward by the No campaign. I’m equally impressed by the range and quality of people who constantly surprised me by their commitment – often recently determined, to vote yes. My sense too is that where the vote on Scottish independence is concerned, Westminster politicians just don’t get it.
Perhaps it should be no surprise. The Coalition government boasts just twelve MP’s out of 59 in Scotland. And only one of these comes from the dominant party in the coalition, the Conservatives.
One senses on the ground in Scotland that the government has left it to the 41 Labour MPs, Labour MSP’s, party workers, and union members to get the No vote out. But some of them, sniffing the possibility of a Yes victory, don’t want to be associated with the “No campaign” when they view their political futures after the vote.
There is no evidence of a positive vision for Scotland from the No vote, just a cascade of negative gruesome warnings about currency, pensions and Europe.

It is as if Westminster doesn’t actually care what happens in the Scottish vote. This as the Sunday Herald, the only Scottish paper to increase its circulation this year, this week also became the first to come out and declare for independence.
Inevitable, as someone who neither lives in Scotland nor boasts Scottish blood I am bound to view this vote from south of the border, despite visiting Scotland regularly. I am bound too to explore the consequences for the rest of the country if Scotland goes independent. Whilst I suspect the “divorce” will be bitter and difficult, perhaps for years, I believe Scotland has the potential benefit in the long term.
As for the consequences of a No vote, the size of the yes vote is bound to force Westminster to look to maximum devolution (termed “Devo Max”) – passing everything bar Foreign Affairs, Defence and fiscal policy to Edinburgh. Yet the No campaign rarely mentions such an event. And the three Westminster parties who so willingly came together to reject a currency union with Scotland should independence dawn, have steadfastly refused to come together to pledge “Devo Max”.
Increasingly it looks as if such an all-party pledge might be the only way to erode the yes vote. Yet it is a move I discussed with many with whom I spoke. A good many said they did not trust Westminster to deliver it.
And no-one talks of a Britain without Scotland. For the rest of us, what will the entity in which we live even be called? Hardly “Great”; hardly “United”; and devoid of many of the Isles that constitute the present British Isles. Additionally, the knowledge that the Scots will suddenly have what we do not have – localised governance devolved from Westminster – is in danger of generating fury. Scottish independence is likely to have a highly destabilising for the rest of us. We only have ourselves to blame.
For too many in Britain, Westminster’s fiddling is breeding political despair. It is despair that seems to be delivering Ukip south of the border and the possibility of a Yes vote north of it.
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MatureStudent36
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#9486
(Original post by Gordon1985)
And how much is Scotland's renewable 'subsidy' compared to, let's say, our share of the spend on trident?
Using financial or managerial accountancy principals?

UK running costs of trident £2 billion.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/cost...eterrent-28864

UK renewables subsidies about £5 billion.

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/ho...ion-years.html

However, the renewables subsidy is difficult to calculate due to additional overheads being charged back to the consumer and tax breaks.

Both are financed UK wide. Both have a higher spend per capita in Scotland than the UK.
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Boab
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#9487
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Using financial or managerial accountancy principals?

UK running costs of trident £2 billion.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/cost...eterrent-28864

UK renewables subsidies about £5 billion.

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/ho...ion-years.html

However, the renewables subsidy is difficult to calculate due to additional overheads being charged back to the consumer and tax breaks.

Both are financed UK wide. Both have a higher spend per capita in Scotland than the UK.
My word you even lie when you give the evidence yourself.

UK renewable subsidies for the last financial year listed were £1.99bn, not £5bn. That report (produced by the taxpayer alliance, who have an agenda against subsidising renewables) have forecast a rise to £5bn in the future!

Trident on the other hand is (according to that guesstimating report) upto £2.4bn, before you include year on year costs of approximately £560m a year and the tiny factor of the procurement costs of a replacement, which will be tens of billions, and that's giving a low-ball price!
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1tartanarmy
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#9488
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#9488
(Original post by Reformed2010)

By joining the EU Scotland would have powers on tax & spending, benefits health, sports, education, justice and crime, and media. But most of these powers are already devolved to Scotland anyway.
First point...we are already EU citizens and so are already subject to EU law.

Second point... the UK is at a huge risk of leavinv the EU we want to stay in.

Third point...tax and spending,benefits and media are powers we don't have. Important powers you missed include the fact that we would have defence, foreign affairs, full welfare powers and energy....funny how you missed those ones out...

You have betrayed your own understanding of the subject with the post I quoted.
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1tartanarmy
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#9489
(Original post by Midlander)
Lest we forget introducing the minimum wage. Another savage attack by Westminster on the poor.


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You speak as if policys like this should be applauded and congratulated...

Policies like this should be common place and expected.

Thats another reason for independence. Westminster is so out of touch its unreal...they even have you banging on about how good they when infact policies like that are common sense! Whats next? Thanks westminster for allowing women to vote?!?!
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1tartanarmy
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#9490
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Priceless. You're lack of economic knowledge is astounding, but is also a reason why I'll be voting no.
Your voting no because you have previously been a member of the armed forces...you have been brainwashed by the westminster politicians... whats your credentials for economics btw? What degree do you have?
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1tartanarmy
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#9491
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#9491
(Original post by Midlander)
Not addressing the point. Do you accept that Westminster is in fact doing British manufacturing a good job at the moment?


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Westminster have destroyed Scotlands manufacturing over decades... for you to deny that would make you even less credible that you already are!
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Midlander
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#9492
(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
You speak as if policys like this should be applauded and congratulated...

Policies like this should be common place and expected.

Thats another reason for independence. Westminster is so out of touch its unreal...they even have you banging on about how good they when infact policies like that are common sense! Whats next? Thanks westminster for allowing women to vote?!?!
The minimum wage was introduced in the mid 90s. Choo Choo claimed that they are just out to benefit the rich and also claimed that they have done nothing to boost British manufacturing.

He has been proven wrong on both counts.
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Midlander
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#9493
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#9493
(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
Westminster have destroyed Scotlands manufacturing over decades... for you to deny that would make you even less credible that you already are!
Not just Scotland's-I come from a region that experienced some of the highest unemployment rates in the UK under Thatcher because of her assault on manufacturing and mining.

However I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about what's going on now. Manufacturing in the UK has undergone a major resurgence under the coalition-I know it breaks your heart for Tories to do something praiseworthy but in this instance they have.

You seem to think that Westminster has singled out Scotland and that nobody else has suffered at their hands down the years. Get off your high horse for a change.
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Gordon1985
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#9494
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Using financial or managerial accountancy principals?

UK running costs of trident £2 billion.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/cost...eterrent-28864

UK renewables subsidies about £5 billion.

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/ho...ion-years.html

However, the renewables subsidy is difficult to calculate due to additional overheads being charged back to the consumer and tax breaks.

Both are financed UK wide. Both have a higher spend per capita in Scotland than the UK.
You seem to have used the lowest estimate for the running costs of Trident, not including the cost of replacing the existing subs (£20-25 billion by your link).

And then used not the current renewables subsidy but a projection for 4/5 years into the future by the Taxpayers Alliance, whose own link says the subsidy is currently less than £2 billion.

If you're so confident in your argument, why the need for such blatent dishonesty?
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Oschene23
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#9495
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#9495
Scottish Independence would probably mean 20 years of Conservative government in the UK (until demographics shift as they already are exponentially to an ethnic minority-majority country), whereupon we will probably see endless left-wing governments in charge due to huge bias of minorities towards left-wing parties and the progressive-liberal camp of green-naïve-optimism prevalent among the current youth which won't completely go away as they age as its more pronounced than ever before among that age group.

I'd be happy with the lost Labour seats to be honest, and happy that random scots couldn't vote on legislation which has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Its a particularly economically-weak burden on the rest of the UK, especially now the natural endowments of resources have run out. This country has always been about London and the surrounding areas, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.
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Gordon1985
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(Original post by Boab)
My word you even lie when you give the evidence yourself.

UK renewable subsidies for the last financial year listed were £1.99bn, not £5bn. That report (produced by the taxpayer alliance, who have an agenda against subsidising renewables) have forecast a rise to £5bn in the future!

Trident on the other hand is (according to that guesstimating report) upto £2.4bn, before you include year on year costs of approximately £560m a year and the tiny factor of the procurement costs of a replacement, which will be tens of billions, and that's giving a low-ball price!
I see you got in there first. MSs links are great for backing up his arguments, as long as nobody bothers to check them.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Oschene23)
Scottish Independence would probably mean 20 years of Conservative government in the UK (until demographics shift as they already are exponentially to an ethnic minority-majority country), whereupon we will probably see endless left-wing governments in charge due to huge bias of minorities towards left-wing parties and the progressive-liberal camp of green-naïve-optimism prevalent among the current youth which won't completely go away as they age as its more pronounced than ever before among that age group.

I'd be happy with the lost Labour seats to be honest, and happy that random scots couldn't vote on legislation which has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Its a particularly economically-weak burden on the rest of the UK, especially now the natural endowments of resources have run out. This country has always been about London and the surrounding areas, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.
Labour doesn't need Scotland to get in.


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Oschene23
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#9498
(Original post by Midlander)
Labour doesn't need Scotland to get in.


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For 2015, from the way the polls are looking, it seems likely that yes they do need those 41 Scottish MPs, even though they've already rigged the electoral boundaries in favour of themselves.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Oschene23)
For 2015, from the way the polls are looking, it seems likely that yes they do need those 41 Scottish MPs, even though they've already rigged the electoral boundaries in favour of themselves.
They only ever need a majority in England to win overall. That has happened enough times in the past to suggest it will happen again.

I take it you are a Home Counties man?


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Boab
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The much heralded HS2 is now, not even going to link to HS1 for the link to Europe!

Who will this impact on? Anyone who doesn't live in London.
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